[Zyx]

It donned on me, again, that I did not much agree with my feminist leaders and it is on this issue. The feminist seem to think that self-defense classes for women is a good thing; personally, I do not.

For one thing; I do not think anyone should ever feel smaller than someone else, sure, a woman is more likely to feel smaller than a man, but bare with me, some people are being taught to knock a bloke in the nuts if he advances too far . . . just messing, I just love that language.

No but seriously, I disagree with self-defense for the same reason that I disagree with gun freedom; that said, how are the issues different? I suppose "self-defense" for women is not "lethal" (I hope) but some people do learn lethal arts and other than that these classes create ridges/tension/confusion/preparation for normal non-physical relationships.

Let's hope this will make a good thread, and better discussion.

Name your position on Self-Defense (not your number of belts), explain how it is different from gun freedom, and support your claim as best you can.

No, do not speak on how you know someone who fended off yadda yadda with yadda yadda . . . that is not the thread for that.

Very succinctly, why agree/disagree with Self-Defense in the face of Gun Freedom.

[Oxymoron]

I agree with self defence. If some one is trying to hurt you or take something away from you have the responsiblity to defend yourself. Self Defence is important to know, if you show confidence of being able to fend for yourself you are less likeley to be singled out.

[Zyx]

Bull, one time I had an encounter; I ran . . . and the "group" was attacked later.

It's like the only rule for running away from a Bear, if one must; run faster than the bloke with you.

Most only a bullet would catch me if I ran from an aggressor.

[Oxymoron]

Running is perfectly ok but not in all situations and if you cannot run you must be able to protect yourself.

[Rancid]

Kumatto.. i'm sure you can guess my stance..

I'll add. i have a few friends that grew up practicing martial arts. The nice thing about martial arts is that you're taught to control yourself, and not get carried away and kill someone.. then again.. practice and a real life situation are two different worlds..

but of course, if you can run away, then you should.

[Huntster]

I disagree with self-defense for the same reason that I disagree with gun freedom

Self defense is one of the most basic activities in biology. Why do you wish to be different?

Name your position on Self-Defense (not your number of belts), explain how it is different from gun freedom, and support your claim as best you can.

Hand to hand combat when exercised as a measure of self defense is a less lethal form of self defense than with a firearm. In legal terms, using a firearm can be considered an inappropriately harsh degree if one is not threatened with deadly aggression.

Very succinctly, why agree/disagree with Self-Defense in the face of Gun Freedom.

Self defense is a basic human right, and if one is threatened with deadly aggression, a firearm is an appropriate means of defending oneself.

[Zerogouki]

I support gun rights unconditionally, including the right to own functional RPGs, AA-12s, and flamethrowers. Tanks are okay, but you wouldn't be allowed to drive them on public roads because they'd take up more than one lane.

[Wolfman]

And American made tanks are slow as hell, and weigh alot more then our roads are capable of taking. I couldn't tell you about tanks from other countries though.

[Zerogouki]

The M1 Abrams has a top speed of 67.7 KPH
The Russian T-90 has a top speed of 65 KPH
The Israeli Merkava has a top speed of 64 KPH
The British Challenger 2 has a top speed of 59 KPH

I'd say that our tanks are actually pretty fast. Also, our interstate highway system was designed very specifically to hold the weight of tanks.

[Wolfman]

Have you ever been in a tank going that fast? I haven't, but I've been in a bull dozer that's used to dig fighting holes for them, and even going 20 miles an hour, you're bouncing all over the place. When you start going top speed, you take on the very real risk that you will tip over at the smallest turn.

Interstate yes, nieghborhood surface streets, I doubt it. Some of my streets fell apart after having tree-trimming trucks come through.

[Huntster]

Have you ever been in a tank going that fast? I haven't, but I've been in a bull dozer that's used to dig fighting holes for them, and even going 20 miles an hour, you're bouncing all over the place.[/quote]

Bulldozers have no suspension whatsoever. The M1 Abrams does.

[Wolfman]

This dozer is designed to function like a tank. And I'm pretty sure it has a suspension. If so, it really doesn't help. And no matter how good the suspension, you get a vechicle/piece of equipment going at it's max it's going to tip over at a turn.

I'm talking about an M9 ACE, by the way. I'm pretty sure it has a suspension.

[Huntster]

I'm talking about an M9 ACE, by the way. I'm pretty sure it has a suspension.

Yes, it does, but not one as well designed to improve the ride at higher speeds like the M1 Abrams:

It is equipped with a unique suspension system which allows the front of the vehicle to be raised, lowered, or tilted to permit dozing, excavating, rough grading and ditching functions........
.......By raising the dozer blade and using its scraper blade, the ACE can fill itself with ballast to improve dozing efficiency. Another key feature of the M9 is its unique hydropneumatic suspension system. The principal components are eight high-pressure hydraulic rotary actuators (four on each side) which connect to the roadwheel stations. During high-speed travel, this system assures a smooth ride through the use of shock-absorbing accumulators. In earthmoving operations, the operator rotates the actuators, thus lowering the apron and blade for digging.

The M1 Abrams features a torsion bar suspension designed by Chrysler Defense not much unlike that in many trucks and SUVs.

[RoughandReady]

Self-defense is a human right. The abilities to be safe and keep others from harming you are as sacred as the freedoms of speech, fair trial, etc. Implied in every human's basic right to life includes the right to protection. Training to be able to defend oneself is an obvious outcome of the world we live in.

In KM classes, I've noticed we have about 1/4 women, and they can kick ass. Whenever I talk to them about their reasons for joining, it's simply that they want to be safe. Women are an easy target, unless they have some sort of protection. And they always have their fists. And knees. And elbows. And jaws.

Keep in mind, though, that self-defense is just not "go up to him, kick his groin, jab a pen in his eye, break his collar bone, and run." It's knowing your surroundings, knowing to cross the street when you see a shady person, staying in groups or in well lit areas, etc. Most people are blind and ignorant to the fact that self-defense is not just a "kill the guy" mentality, but a "be safe, be aware" mentality. Don't let biased media make you think the other way.

[Wolfman]

not one as well designed to improve the ride at higher speeds like the M1 Abrams:

Fair enough. I don't deal with the ACE too much (thank God). That POS is mostly Army equipment, I deal with Marine Corps heavy junk.

However, you get a piece of equipment going top speed, a small turn is likely to make it tip. And a surface street would be destroyed by having a tank pass over it once or twice.

[froggo]

Is this a serious thread?

You're right Zyx... Women should not be allowed to learn how to defend themselves. Instead they should be raped and abused and told to shut up and sit still while it happens.

You know.... running away IS a form of self-defense. you defend the self by escape.
The key to learning self-defense is knowing the strategies to use in various situations that may occur. Sometimes you have the opportunity to run, sometimes you have the opportunity to temporarily cripple your opponent with a well placed kick to the testicles. Both are essential forms of self-defense.

The difference between hand-to-hand and gun self-defense IS lethality.
A rapist ought not be shot by his victim. Injured, perhaps, but murdered? no.

[Huntster]

However, you get a piece of equipment going top speed, a small turn is likely to make it tip. And a surface street would be destroyed by having a tank pass over it once or twice.

I agree on both counts, but my experience operating tracked rigs is that they slide first, then turn over when the tracks hit an obstacle or they go over an incline.

At nearly 70 tons, and as a skid-steer vehicle, they'd destroy thin pavement (<4")rather quickly.

[Zerogouki]

Tank treads are designed a bit differently from dozer treads, though. Dozers are made to operate in loose dirt and gravel, so each tread segment has a horizontal "fin" on it that helps in grabbing onto unstable surfaces. They're also good at slicing through asphalt when you put 70 tons on them. Tanks, by contrast, have flat-bottomed treads.

Topic drift: the ability to go from self-defense classes for women to the type of suspension used in bulldozers within a single page.

[Huntster]

Topic drift: the ability to go from self-defense classes for women to the type of suspension used in bulldozers within a single page.

Like the old joke went: "You don't know shit, but you want to talk about nuclear fission?"

[MistyTiger]

I think all women should know self defense. I'm short and I don't want to have to carry a gun for protection. For one, don't most places have metal detectors? Or what if I get arrested for carrying a concealed weapon? How do I explain it?

Also, I want to feel stronger. It's not enough that I lift weights and do cardio. I need to be able to fend for myself, in case I am not quick enough to escape any attacker.