Common Objections to Liberalism - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Modern liberalism. Civil rights and liberties, State responsibility to the people (welfare).
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#14176196
Travesty wrote:POD in that case there are no Western Leftist governments at all


Belgium currently has a leftist gov't, but it does not seem to be exporting or otherwise supporting a corporate globalist agenda, as far as I can tell.

And the Euro-Parliament is in charge of the budget and elects the European Commission which is accountable to the parliament which is made up of largely left wing parties.


As I said, the European parliament is mainly made up of centrist and right wing parties.

Btw a center-right European party is further to the Left than the Democratic party in the United States. Their policy of carbon taxation for example would be considered a left wing policy by any other country.


Yes, the US has a skewed version of reality. However, there is no reason to take the US's view as somehow more correct.

Here's the issue this idea that neo-Liberalism is conservative doesn't mesh well with conservative ideology that favors state sovereignty and generally opposes globalization and supra national institutions.


In my opinion, a large part of conservative foreign policy is all about imposing neo-liberal economic policies on other countries.
#14176202
The vast majority (or even all?) social democratic parties in Europe have officially abandoned socialism and are committed to a free-market based economy cushioned by the welfare state. In German terms: social market economy.

While I don't subscribe to the 'we are subservient to corporations and particularly the financial industry', I would agree that the centre-left in Europe is basically liberal. They have supported privatisations and free trade and have opposed protectionism, for instance. Maybe not to the same extent as the centre-right, but sufficiently to be called liberal. Additionally, basically all of them are in favour of more EU-integration and I hope everyone can agree that the EU is the epitome of a liberal capitalist project.
#14176208
@ POD

The EU is a globalist project though, which as you say is ruled by center right parties. That promotes neo-liberal economic policies in other countries. Then why would European Socialist governments like Belgium and France be so adamant in supporting the EU? However the EU also largely promotes Secularism and left wing liberal ideology don't they?

The fact of the matter is that corporate and financial interests are more powerful than national governments at this point and ideological distinctions have become largely meaningless as the Western World is ruled by a transnational globalist elite.

The vast majority (or even all?) social democratic parties in Europe have officially abandoned socialism and are committed to a free-market based economy cushioned by the welfare state. In German terms: social market economy.


Well exactly they aren't Socialists they are left wing neo-Liberals with a welfare state that support a globalist free market agenda.
#14176220
Travesty wrote:The EU is a globalist project though, which as you say is ruled by center right parties. That promotes neo-liberal economic policies in other countries.


So, we agree that leftists are not to blame for that.

Then why would European Socialist governments like Belgium and France be so adamant in supporting the EU?


Maybe they have the hope that it will turn into a (badly needed) gov't body capable of curtailing the efforts of multinationals to rule the world.

However the EU also largely promotes Secularism and left wing liberal ideology don't they?


I have no idea about their opinions on secularism. Nor do I think it is relevant. If you start to also discuss liberal and conservative social policies, you wil confuse the discussion on economic policy.

The fact of the matter is that corporate and financial interests are more powerful than national governments at this point and ideological distinctions have become largely meaningless as the Western World is ruled by a transnational globalist elite.


I agree. This is not the fault of leftist liberals, except that we were unable to stop the rest of you from setting this up.
#14176222
Maybe they have the hope that it will turn into a (badly needed) gov't body capable of curtailing the efforts of multinationals to rule the world.


You know you where making sense until you started saying that this is the fault of only the Right Wing Liberals while the Left Wing Liberals are the good guys. You are both bought.
#14176225
Travesty wrote:You know you where making sense until you started saying that this is the fault of only the Right Wing Liberals while the Left Wing Liberals are the good guys. You are both bought.


I was bought? Awesome! When do I get paid? Because I never got a cheque for attending those anti-free trade protests, and it would be nice to get some cash out of this.
#14176229
- Only right wingers get bought obviously....

Except how about those corruption scandals during Jean Chretien. But he obviously wasn't a left wing liberal...
#14176267
Travesty wrote:- Only right wingers get bought obviously....

Except how about those corruption scandals during Jean Chretien. But he obviously wasn't a left wing liberal...


You are correct. He was a centrist.
#14176278
Whatever POD

There never where corruption scandals involving Socialist political Parties or Leftist governments. I bow to your Left-Wing Liberal moral purity and wisdom.
#14176295
Travesty wrote:Whatever POD

There never where corruption scandals involving Socialist political Parties or Leftist governments. I bow to your Left-Wing Liberal moral purity and wisdom.


What do corruption scandals have to do with this?

We are discussing whether or not left wing liberals are part of the cause of the global financial problem.
#14176304
Well at least we agree that Neo-Liberalism is still the dominant ideology in the world and that it is largely responsible for the decline of the nation state and democratic institutions to the benefit of international finance and multinationals.
#14176308
To be a bit more serious, I think both, the centre-right and centre-left support globalisation to some extent. They might come from opposite directions and their motivations may be different, but there is definitely a consensus that free trade with the world and private enterprise is the way to go. Both sides also have in their ranks people who are not particularly keen on this. The centre-right usually has a more nationalist faction which wouldn't be particularly opposed to the protection of certain industries and parts of the centre-left strongly support public ownership.

To say one side has sold out but not the other is not correct, in my opinion. While the centre-right always has been more open to business interests, you could say that the centre-left has sold out more by abandoning core principles and moving much more to the (economic) right relative to its original position.

That countries are completely beholden to corporate and financial interests is also nonsense. They clearly do (and should, imo) have influence, but it's not like they are the only factor when it comes to policy.
#14176315
Influence is fine. They have too much influence. And are the leading factor in determining economic policy especially in the last decade. And yes smaller countries and the third world are economically completely beholden to corporate interests and international finance.
#14176328
Well for example, too much influence is when Wall Street spends over 200 million dollars financing both US candidates in 2012. That is after they caused the financial crisis that cost the US 700 billion in TARP bailouts. For which nobody got tried or convicted even though there where clear cases of large scale fraud. That's too much influence.
#14176349
Ok, lets start with that.

Where is your number from? I might be missing something, but according to the Center of Responsible Politics, the distribution of campaign contributions looks like this. Finance, Insurance, and Real Estate contributed a total of ~$90 mio, with the lion's share going to Republicans. There are probably also some hidden contributions in the category 'Other'. Scanning the other contributors I get an overall total of $500 mio. The proportion of finance industry contributions relative to the total amount doesn't strike me as particularly outrageous, especially not for the Democrats (and they've obviously won).

Regarding the bailouts, if I remember correctly, most of the loans have been paid back with interest.

Can you give details of the 'clear cases of fraud'?
#14176402
- According to the center for responsive politics (lol) they spent 164 million. Including Super Pac money which I really dont know how they traced. I personally thought that Wall Street Wall Street would have spent more than they did in 2008 but anywho 50 million more 50 million less.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/09/05/investi ... ?iid=HP_LN

- An example of fraud is knowingly lying to clients about toxic mortgage securities that where set to go bust.

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/02/06/ ... f=business

- The Tarp money has been partially payed back but it is still a fraction of what the US government actually spent (2.5 Trillion) bailing out the financial industry after the crash.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009 ... aphic.html
#14176603
I cannot find the categorisation of Super Pac money on that website, just the data I already mentioned and references to individual contributors. At any rate, the total amount received by Obama was $715 mio and it seems that the majority of finance industry contributions went to Romney. They've bet on the wrong horse in this election it seems.

Regarding your NY Times article about JPMorgan, it seems the case is currently before the court. It's one thing for a newspaper to highlight details of court documents, but another for the prosecution to actually prove them. I would suggest we wait for the result.

From the same article:
NY Times wrote:Dexia’s lawsuit is part of a broad assault on Wall Street for its role in the 2008 financial crisis, as prosecutors, regulators and private investors take aim at mortgage-related securities. New York’s attorney general, Eric T. Schneiderman, sued JPMorgan last year over investments created by Bear Stearns between 2005 and 2007.

Jamie Dimon, JPMorgan’s chief executive, has criticized prosecutors for attacking JPMorgan because of what Bear Stearns did. Speaking at the Council on Foreign Relations in October, Mr. Dimon said the bank did the federal government “a favor” by rescuing the flailing firm in 2008.

The legal onslaught has been costly. In November, JPMorgan, the nation’s largest bank, agreed to pay $296.9 million to settle claims by the Securities and Exchange Commission that Bear Stearns had misled mortgage investors by hiding some delinquent loans. JPMorgan did not admit or deny wrongdoing.

Unless you are claiming that the lawsuits by prosecutors and regulators are a smokescreen and won't lead to any convictions because Wall Street has Obama in their pockets, I'd say the above shows that they are certainly trying. And while there may well have been fraudulent behaviour (which I think is likely), proving it is always difficult.

As for TARP:
Boston Globe wrote:The financial results of individual TARP investments — gains and losses — have been all over the map.

Money invested in banks, as a group, have already earned a modest profit if you include interest, dividends, and stock warrants. The Treasury is auctioning off most of its remaining bank investments, but that won’t amount to big dollars. Big institutions repaid loans quickly and accounted for the bulk of the government’s profit. Those big banks chafed at business restrictions that came with the money — especially limits on what top managers could be paid. “The executive pay restrictions had an unintended consequence in that they really encouraged managers at large banks to pay back early and that’s how we made a profit,” said Linus Wilson of the University of Louisiana at Lafayette, who has written extensively on the impact of TARP.

The government will surely lose money on its auto industry investments. GM may end up costing $15 billion. Chrysler was a much smaller loser, costing about $3 billion. But the biggest surprise in the the TARP portfolio turned out to be AIG. The Treasury and Federal Reserve had committed a combined $182 billion to prop up the insurer and ended up making a profit that works out to about 3 percent a year. Of course, government officials signed off on other financial crisis management plans above and beyond TARP. The bailout of mortgage finance giants Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac amounted to $187.5 billion and the final cost will be sky high.

So it's Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and the auto industry that will really cost Americans, with the former two being the by far most expensive items. And for the subprime mortgage disasters of these two agencies lawmakers have to take a substantial part of the blame. Not because they were lobbied by the financial industry, but because ensuring homeownership was a desirable social policy. Later they were also used in an attempt to prevent/stem recession:

NY Times wrote:Shortly after he became chief executive, Mr. Mudd traveled to the California offices of Angelo R. Mozilo, the head of Countrywide Financial, then the nation’s largest mortgage lender. Fannie had a longstanding and lucrative relationship with Countrywide, which sold more loans to Fannie than anyone else. But at that meeting, Mr. Mozilo, a butcher’s son who had almost single-handedly built Countrywide into a financial powerhouse, threatened to upend their partnership unless Fannie started buying Countrywide’s riskier loans. Mr. Mozilo, who did not return telephone calls seeking comment, told Mr. Mudd that Countrywide had other options. For example, Wall Street had recently jumped into the market for risky mortgages. Firms like Bear Stearns, Lehman Brothers and Goldman Sachs had started bundling home loans and selling them to investors — bypassing Fannie and dealing with Countrywide directly. “You’re becoming irrelevant,” Mr. Mozilo told Mr. Mudd, according to two people with knowledge of the meeting who requested anonymity because the talks were confidential. In the previous year, Fannie had already lost 56 percent of its loan-reselling business to Wall Street and other competitors. “You need us more than we need you,” Mr. Mozilo said, “and if you don’t take these loans, you’ll find you can lose much more.” Then Mr. Mozilo offered everyone a breath mint.

Investors were also pressuring Mr. Mudd to take greater risks. On one occasion, a hedge fund manager telephoned a senior Fannie executive to complain that the company was not taking enough gambles in chasing profits. “Are you stupid or blind?” the investor roared, according to someone who heard the call, but requested anonymity. “Your job is to make me money!”

Capitol Hill bore down on Mr. Mudd as well. The same year he took the top position, regulators sharply increased Fannie’s affordable-housing goals. Democratic lawmakers demanded that the company buy more loans that had been made to low-income and minority homebuyers. “When homes are doubling in price in every six years and incomes are increasing by a mere one percent per year, Fannie’s mission is of paramount importance,” Senator Jack Reed, a Rhode Island Democrat, lectured Mr. Mudd at a Congressional hearing in 2006. “In fact, Fannie and Freddie can do more, a lot more.”

But Fannie’s computer systems could not fully analyze many of the risky loans that customers, investors and lawmakers wanted Mr. Mudd to buy. Many of them — like balloon-rate mortgages or mortgages that did not require paperwork — were so new that dangerous bets could not be identified, according to company executives. Even so, Fannie began buying huge numbers of riskier loans. In one meeting, according to two people present, Mr. Mudd told employees to “get aggressive on risk-taking, or get out of the company.” In the interview, Mr. Mudd said he did not recall that conversation and that he always stressed taking only prudent risks. Employees, however, say they got a different message. “Everybody understood that we were now buying loans that we would have previously rejected, and that the models were telling us that we were charging way too little,” said a former senior Fannie executive. “But our mandate was to stay relevant and to serve low-income borrowers. So that’s what we did.” Between 2005 and 2007, the company’s acquisitions of mortgages with down payments of less than 10 percent almost tripled. As the market for risky loans soared to $1 trillion, Fannie expanded in white-hot real estate areas like California and Florida.

[...]

In the middle of last year it became clear that millions of borrowers would stop paying their mortgages. For Fannie, this raised the terrifying prospect of paying billions of dollars to honor its guarantees. Had Fannie been a private entity, its comeuppance might have happened a year ago. But the White House, Wall Street and Capitol Hill were more concerned about the trillions of dollars in other loans that were poisoning financial institutions and banks. Lawmakers, particularly Democrats, leaned on Fannie and Freddie to buy and hold those troubled debts, hoping that removing them from the system would help the economy recover. The companies, eager to regain market share and buy what they thought were undervalued loans, rushed to comply.

The White House also pitched in. James B. Lockhart, the chief regulator of Fannie and Freddie, adjusted the companies’ lending standards so they could purchase as much as $40 billion in new subprime loans. Some in Congress praised the move. “I’m not worried about Fannie and Freddie’s health, I’m worried that they won’t do enough to help out the economy,” the chairman of the House Financial Services Committee, Barney Frank, Democrat of Massachusetts, said at the time. “That’s why I’ve supported them all these years — so that they can help at a time like this.”
#14176686
Travesty wrote:Well at least we agree that Neo-Liberalism is still the dominant ideology in the world and that it is largely responsible for the decline of the nation state and democratic institutions to the benefit of international finance and multinationals.


Sure, but liberals are not neo-liberals. These are two different groups of people.

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