The EU exodus: When doctors and nurses follow the money - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14847428
Politico wrote:
The EU exodus: When doctors and nurses follow the money

Not every country can reward graduates equally, so medical professionals leave.

Freedom of movement is one of the cornerstones of the European Union. When it comes to providing health care in the bloc’s poorest countries, it’s also a problem. More doctors and nurses move from one country to another than any other highly regulated profession in the EU, and the flows often go from East to West, from poorer EU countries to richer ones. A POLITICO analysis of European Commission data found the exodus of health care professionals is especially pronounced from Eastern and Southern Europe. In effect, these countries are training doctors for their richer neighbors.

Take Ingmar Lindström, who graduated from the University of Tartu’s medical school in Estonia in 2001. All he had to do to quadruple his salary was move 200 kilometers. He was making about €600 a month as a doctor in Estonia, doing family medicine work and studying for his Ph.D. He enjoyed his job and liked the place where he lived. “But it didn’t pay all the bills,” he said. “That’s the main reason I thought I might go to Finland.” Just across the gulf, young doctors made €2,000 or €3,000 per month — four to five times what they could make in Estonia — and a shortage of Finnish doctors made it easy to find a job. “A few years after I graduated, 30 to 40 percent of each graduating class was moving,” Lindström said.

* * *

Educating doctors is a long and expensive process, but not every country can reward its graduates equally. Health spending per capita varies drastically in EU countries, from €816 per year in Romania to more than €4,000 in Luxembourg, Germany and other Western European countries. And so doctors and nurses follow the money. A survey just before Estonia’s accession to the EU in 2004 — just three years after Lindström graduated from medical school — shows that more than half of Estonia’s 17,749 health care workers were considering working abroad. The country had 4,312 practicing doctors in 2004; more than 1,800 doctors have applied for qualifications abroad since then. In 2011, a member of the Board of the Estonian Family Doctors Society warned of a future in the country in which “there is no family physician within a radius of 100 kilometers,” according to local media.

Estonia isn’t alone in watching its health care workers leave.

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Romania lost half its doctors between 2009 and 2015. A few years after Poland joined the EU, more than 60 percent of fifth- and sixth-year medical students planned to pursue work abroad. Slovakia had about 15,000 practicing physicians when it joined the EU in 2004; 3,800 have applied to leave since then. Hardest hit by the exodus of doctors and nurses: the EU’s newest members, plus crisis-hit Portugal and Greece, according to POLITICO’s analysis of Commission data. This westward migration of mostly young professionals is taking place at a time when the average age of a doctor in the EU is rising. More than one in three doctors in the EU were 55 or older in 2014. By 2020, this “retirement bulge” will mean that more than 60,000 doctors — 3.2 percent of the workforce — will leave the profession each year, according to the Commission. In some countries, the loss of doctors and nurses seems to be already taking a toll. In Romania, for example, 10 percent of the population reported going without medical care.

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When it comes to recruiting nurses and doctors from developing nations, it’s accepted that host countries have a responsibility not to sap dry the countries they recruit from. In 1999, for example, the U.K. Department of Health implemented standards for “ethical international recruitment,” including a list of developing countries from which health care worker recruitment should be restricted. The list included Croatia — which has lost 570 doctors (5 percent of the total) to EU emigration since it joined the bloc in 2013 — as well as several countries now in EU accession talks. The EU has also adopted policy papers acknowledging its responsibility to protect some non-EU countries from worsening health care shortages. But within the union, there’s no such admission; in fact, the Commission has moved to make migration easier.

* * *

The process of moving to another EU country has traditionally been clunky for strictly regulated professions, such as doctors or nurses. Applicants aren’t always sure where to submit their applications to have their credentials recognized, requirements vary between countries, and national authorities often miss deadlines for responding to the requests. Last year, the Commission launched a program that streamlined the process for some workers by bringing it online. Through the European Professional Card website, professionals working in five of the credentialed professions with the most intra-EU mobility — nurses, pharmacists, physiotherapists, real estate agents and mountain guides — can see what’s required in each country, upload their qualifications and pay a registration fee. Once the host country accepts them, they can move and (assuming they meet any language requirements) begin to practice. If the host country misses the deadline for responding, the application is automatically approved. The Commission considered similarly streamlining the process for doctors when it began shaping the program in 2014, but decided to postpone that part of the initiative until a potential “second stage.” This delay was partly due to concerns about patient safety and operational aspects of the program, according to a Commission staff working document, and partly due to “the political sensitivity” of introducing the program for doctors “in the light of existing shortages of medical doctors in certain national health care systems.” The Commission is reviewing how the program works for nurses. An analysis to be published later this year may include a proposal to expand the program to other professions.

* * *

That would mean more stories like that of Lindström, the Estonian doctor who relocated to Finland. Lindström recalls a slight pressure from the Estonian media to stay in the country and work, but it was never explicit. Anyway, he was far from the first or only doctor to emigrate for the higher pay. Wasn’t that the point of freedom of movement, that if someone could do better somewhere else, he had the right to? “The taxpayers were worried they have paid for our studies and then we were leaving the country,” Lindström said. “But I had worked in Estonia before I went to Finland, and the pay by these taxpayers was so low I thought, ‘They have allowed me to go.’”

The structure of the medical system in Finland was different: Unlike Estonia, no patient could see a specialist until they’d been to a general doctor first, so more was expected from him as a GP. He was nearly fluent in Finnish already, so the language barrier was not an issue, and cultural similarities meant the move wasn’t as drastic as it could have been. Still, it added stress to an already high-stress career, as he traveled back and forth to Estonia often to see family. Estonia’s situation has improved somewhat. It has begun recruiting from even farther east, in Russia, and the national government increased health professionals’ wages to persuade them to stay. Other countries have taken this approach as well, sometimes with the EU’s financial backing.

Last year, the Hungarian Ministry of Human Resources warned that the country could lose half of its 6,500 family doctors in the next 10 years to emigration and retirement. It has boosted funding for basic medical services and introduced a series of measures — from grants for individual doctors to EU-subsidized “health development offices” scattered around the country — aimed at improving the medical system for general practitioners.

And sometimes, doctors do come back: When Lindström’s children started school, he decided to return to home. He now works at his family’s practice in Tallinn. But his experience shows how difficult it can be for countries like Estonia to keep their medical professionals. After working in Finland, he’s aware of how different his job can be, even if the two countries are just a gulf apart. “It was a bit hard having practiced in Finland to come back in Estonia,” Lindström said. “Finnish doctors have 15 patients a day, and the 16th patient they are quite unhappy and tell everyone about it. “Estonian doctors take, maybe, 30 patients a day and they don’t say anything.”

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Great info graphics.

Provides some perspective on the claim we so often hear in the richer countries - and this is not restricted to the EU, as for NZ I can't remember a time when it wasn't claimed that we have a shortage - that without immigration the health care system would break down. By that measure the "new" EU members', Greece's and Portugal's health care systems have already broken down a long time ago, and despite this the other EU members keep recruiting as if there was no tomorrow.
#14847560
@Kaiserschmarrn
So what do those graphics show ? We have a shortage of medical personal in Europe :eh: .

After Brexit the shortage of personal will only increase in the UK. And yes people obviously follow the money if they get payed more for the same job abroad. I doubt comparing Estonian, Polish or Romanian healthcare to UK, France or Germany is fair. Obviously we have some semblance of it but it is not a good semblance. If you want to have Eastern European level of healthcare in the UK than i will not complain but making it sound like there will be no damage to healthcare is redicilouse.
#14847752
JohnRawls wrote:@Kaiserschmarrn
So what do those graphics show ? We have a shortage of medical personal in Europe :eh: .

They show the flow of medical personnel within the EU, obviously.

JohnRawls wrote:After Brexit the shortage of personal will only increase in the UK. And yes people obviously follow the money if they get payed more for the same job abroad. I doubt comparing Estonian, Polish or Romanian healthcare to UK, France or Germany is fair. Obviously we have some semblance of it but it is not a good semblance. If you want to have Eastern European level of healthcare in the UK than i will not complain but making it sound like there will be no damage to healthcare is redicilouse.

I wasn't thinking about Brexit specifically.

One thing that is missing in those graphs is how many health professionals EU members lose to the rest of the world. I suspect the UK loses quite a lot to other English speaking countries, for instance, which it makes up by recruiting from Eastern Europe and developing countries outside the EU. Although, as the article points out, within the EU - as opposed to the rest of the world - no consideration is given to the negative effects of the magnitude of the brain drain in the sending countries. I guess that's EU dogma at work again.

I'm skeptical and critical of the narrative that a breakdown of health services is imminent without immigration in general. As I said in the OP, it has been a constant in NZ for decades. As I see it, at this point it has just become a justification for not doing anything about the problem.
#14847757
Rugoz wrote:No, that's we're about to turn South/Eastern Europe into a wasteland.


You do understand that the medical personal goes to UK because the salary is high there? We have the jobs in our countries for them but they prefer to work in better paid countries. This is not really a net loss or a net benefit for us. (Because some of them do come back)

But for you, it will hit your NHS.

I'm skeptical and critical of the narrative that a breakdown of health services is imminent without immigration in general. As I said in the OP, it has been a constant in NZ for decades. As I see it, at this point it has just become a justification for not doing anything about the problem.


Kind off. I do agree with this. It is easier to import foreign professionals than to educate them yourself, since you do not pay for the education. There is a way out of this ofcourse but it is not painless.
#14847759
JohnRawls wrote:You do understand that the medical personal goes to UK because the salary is high there? We have the jobs in our countries for them but they prefer to work in better paid countries. This is not really a net loss or a net benefit for us. (Because some of them do come back)

But for you, it will hit your NHS.


I may have exaggerated, but even the IMF thinks it's a net loss for you.

I'm not British (we get lots of German doctors).
#14847969
JohnRawls wrote:After Brexit the shortage of personal will only increase in the UK.


:eh: Why would it? With the UK having control of its own borders, it can decide whether it wants to accept Romanian or Greek healthcare workers or not. The chances are they will continue to accept them. What we may not accept is unskilled or manual labour workers.
#14848358
Thompson_NCL wrote::eh: Why would it? With the UK having control of its own borders, it can decide whether it wants to accept Romanian or Greek healthcare workers or not. The chances are they will continue to accept them. What we may not accept is unskilled or manual labour workers.


I do understand this to a degree. But the country needs both: Unskilled workers(because the jobs are not being picked up) and skilled workers. So right now i am a bit puzzled regarding this and work under the presumption that if Brexit fully happens then it will be guided by severe worker travel restrictions.

It is hard to say honestly. If you accept only highly skilled workers than why are you blocking unskilled ones even if you need them? If you block unskilled workers then does this mean that skilled workers will also have harsher conditions? Or will we even use the same rules as we are using now?

This is also one of the uncertanties of Brexit.
#14848372
I do understand this to a degree. But the country needs both: Unskilled workers(because the jobs are not being picked up) and skilled workers. So right now i am a bit puzzled regarding this and work under the presumption that if Brexit fully happens then it will be guided by severe worker travel restrictions.


Nonsense, if the jobs aren't being picked up (a right wing myth anyway) it means the greedy capitalists are not paying a high enough wage. It does not mean we should import hundreds of thousands of units of suprplus labour and their families into this country every year.
#14848420
Decky wrote:Nonsense, if the jobs aren't being picked up (a right wing myth anyway) it means the greedy capitalists are not paying a high enough wage. It does not mean we should import hundreds of thousands of units of suprplus labour and their families into this country every year.


Shortage of workers is not good for economy as you get lower economic growth. Capitalism needs unemployed to grow. When there aren't enough, they need to be imported. The main problem with the EU model is that nobody controls it.

When workers become aware of how capitalism works its a disaster for the economy actually. Britain and US economies were built on cheap labour.
#14848430
A shortage of workers is great for the economy from the point of view of the working class, it means wages rise and working conditions improve as employers have to compete with one another to get workers. It lowers profits of course but who cares? I only care about people who work for a living not the idle shits that derive their income from share dividents, rents or profits. As far as I am concered those bums can leave the country. Who would notice the diference, it isn't as if they produce anything?
#14848531
JohnRawls wrote:
Kind off. I do agree with this. It is easier to import foreign professionals than to educate them yourself, since you do not pay for the education. There is a way out of this ofcourse but it is not painless.

Yes, there will be an adjustment period. I'm not sure about an increase in costs as we educate people anyway. If we can get more people into medicine and health care instead of other fields the costs don't necessarily go up or at least not by much. I can think of quite a few useless degrees that could do with a reduction of graduates.

But the country needs both: Unskilled workers(because the jobs are not being picked up) and skilled workers.

There are a few factors that play a role in low and unskilled migration. That we are constantly being told that westerners don't want to do certain jobs may well have contributed to it becoming a self-fulfilling prophesy. Another part is the social aspect of work - if a field is already dominated by low or unskilled foreigners, who often don't even speak the language, it tends to become unattractive, especially for young people who often used to fill many of these roles but for whom the income isn't necessarily vital. Add to this that we are increasingly prolonging adolescence with young people taking their first paid job ever later in life and of course the fact that labour market forces that would under normal circumstances drive up wages for these jobs are being muted by a constant stream of immigration. A significant population of illegal immigrants makes the situation even worse.

As above, changing this would involve an adjustment period, as we have allowed or deliberately encouraged this dependency on migrant work to develop to the extent that whole industries rely on recruitment of a significant number of workers from abroad.
#14848762
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:Yes, there will be an adjustment period. I'm not sure about an increase in costs as we educate people anyway. If we can get more people into medicine and health care instead of other fields the costs don't necessarily go up or at least not by much. I can think of quite a few useless degrees that could do with a reduction of graduates.


There are a few factors that play a role in low and unskilled migration. That we are constantly being told that westerners don't want to do certain jobs may well have contributed to it becoming a self-fulfilling prophesy. Another part is the social aspect of work - if a field is already dominated by low or unskilled foreigners, who often don't even speak the language, it tends to become unattractive, especially for young people who often used to fill many of these roles but for whom the income isn't necessarily vital. Add to this that we are increasingly prolonging adolescence with young people taking their first paid job ever later in life and of course the fact that labour market forces that would under normal circumstances drive up wages for these jobs are being muted by a constant stream of immigration. A significant population of illegal immigrants makes the situation even worse.

As above, changing this would involve an adjustment period, as we have allowed or deliberately encouraged this dependency on migrant work to develop to the extent that whole industries rely on recruitment of a significant number of workers from abroad.


I heavily disagree with your 2nd point. I have literally NEVER seen the policy is use. (Kick out immigrants and wages will start rising because of no free manpower). I do understand how it should work but it never happens. At least not in the same way you are describing it. (Manpower shortages do happen though)

There is no political or economic motive to implement it. Economically it will hurt the economy because general production is very happy to use low waged manpower/lower than usual wage manpower. Also the political aspects of such decision is damning (Bad pr). On top of that EU is also issuing threats regarding this.
#14848798
JohnRawls wrote:
I heavily disagree with your 2nd point. I have literally NEVER seen the policy is use. (Kick out immigrants and wages will start rising because of no free manpower). I do understand how it should work but it never happens. At least not in the same way you are describing it. (Manpower shortages do happen though)

There is no political or economic motive to implement it. Economically it will hurt the economy because general production is very happy to use low waged manpower/lower than usual wage manpower. Also the political aspects of such decision is damning (Bad pr). On top of that EU is also issuing threats regarding this.

I'm not sure why you think I'm suggesting to kick out immigrants. All that is needed is for industries to not have access to a pretty much constant stream of low or unskilled migrants. This could be done in several steps that make it increasingly more difficult so that there's a transition period. The labour market would adjust over time.

Another negative effect of this type of immigration is that it reduces incentives to increase productivity.
#14849424
Thompson_NCL wrote::eh: Why would it? With the UK having control of its own borders, it can decide whether it wants to accept Romanian or Greek healthcare workers or not. The chances are they will continue to accept them. What we may not accept is unskilled or manual labour workers.


The problem is at the moment European workers who have found a job in the UK simply pack their bags and move here, bringing their families.

My niece is a nursing sister, and while a sizeable minority of the nurses she recruits from European countries are young and unencumbered, quite a few have families they want to bring with them. For example, they bring their husband or wife ( who themselves finds work) and then perhaps later, the mother who looks after the children while their parents work.

That will have to stop, which means the really experienced nurses won't be so easily available any more.
My niece told me if Boris Johnson was to surface anywhere near her orbit and there was a gun and a bush handy, she'd take him behind it and shoot him in the head. She blames him.
#14849471
One question that needs to be asked is why Britain is so dependent on health care workers from other EU-countries while, for instance, France isn't. France's health care system clearly isn't worse than Britain's and they seem to get by without a constant supply from abroad. If people were able to apply simple logic like this, it would go a long way in demolishing the myth that the NHS would break down if it didn't have easy access to a large number of non-British health professionals.
#14849865
I agree, Kaiser. What we need to tackle is the reason why British workers are not getting into the profession. However I suspect part of it is cyclical in nature. With so many immigrants arriving in the UK, British workers were insufficient to fill the gap so more foreigners were brought in, thus requiring yet more jobs in the healthcare industry.
#14849869
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:One question that needs to be asked is why Britain is so dependent on health care workers from other EU-countries while, for instance, France isn't. France's health care system clearly isn't worse than Britain's and they seem to get by without a constant supply from abroad. If people were able to apply simple logic like this, it would go a long way in demolishing the myth that the NHS would break down if it didn't have easy access to a large number of non-British health professionals.


It wont break down but it will suffer some damage.(By some i mean i am not sure how much) There is obviously a solution to this but this is a long time issue and not something that you can fix within 1 or 2 years. Which is the point i was trying to make. This is actually a good example how Brexit will affect different sectors of economy. It is not that it will fully destroy the UK but it will cause some damage. The damage can be obviously repaired over time but is it all worth it honestly?
#14849870
It's quite simple, kaiserchmarnn.

France spends a significantly larger percentage of GDP on national healthcare.

The Tories are doing their best to make the NHS so inefficient by starving it of cash, that the general public will become resigned to selling it off to American insurance companies.

Training nurses and doctors is expensive and very time consuming. Obviously, it's much cheaper and quicker to recruit ready trained medical staff.

That is the bottom line.
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