[Maxim Litvinov]

Rostem - sure you can revert back to the original discussion if you want. But I can't ignore your excuse for doing so.

Of course we can't 'predict the future' - a point which is just as relevant to our recent argument as to the thread at large - but the only way to argue about it is to define reasonable trends and speculate as to what these trends will lead to on the basis of past results.

As I have done consistently, I would again point out that no matter how *astounded* or *gobsmacked* you might be at the idea of future EU integration, the trends - the reasonable extrapolation of current experiences and past histories - suggest that further EU integration is on the cards.

Now, as for whether the EU will challenge the US hegemony. Well, in terms of raw employment figures perhaps it won't. Then again, Europe has a much more diverse and flexible population than the US. It often has a more moderate and agreeable stance in matters diplomatic and political. And its economic markets don't seem so unstable - correct me if I'm wrong.

An aging population is a problem for most Western countries - America isn't excluded from this. Europe will understandably have a period of economic hardship while the states of Eastern Europe are integrated into the new economic structure, but one would suspect that if and when this occurs, Europe will be in a unique position to rival the US.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Of course we can't 'predict the future' - a point which is just as relevant to our recent argument as to the thread at large - but the only way to argue about it is to define reasonable trends and speculate as to what these trends will lead to on the basis of past results.

You are assuming trends will remain. They never do.

The US constantly and persistently takes business out of people's garages and turns them into multibillion giants that are money making machines the world over.
Google is the latest.
Why don't we ever see a new industry come out of the EU?
Hmmm?
When has the EU produced an APPLE, Microsoft, Dell, Google or Intel?

The US does this constantanly and regularly. New industries are invented in the US not in the EU.
The EU is almost the perfect mechanism for mediocrity and and shrinking industrial know-how while the US and Japan beat the living crap out of your industry on the planetary field of competition.
Most of your industry is pampered and protected by the EU, which explains why upstarts are such a rarity coming out of the EU, while the cuthroat competitive environment in the US kills off the ineffient and rewards the new and inovative.
The numbers speak for themselves.
US unemployment 6% and shrinking.
EU unemployment 10% and increasing.
Whoohoo!

[liberalist]

Why don't we ever see a new industry come out of the EU?
Hmmm?
When has the EU produced an APPLE, Microsoft, Dell, Google or Intel?

Ever heard of Nokia? Eriksson maybe? What about Ikea (whose owner may or may not be the richest man in the world)? Mercedes, BMW - do they ring a bell? Volkswagen - have you heard or that one? What about petroleum companies such as BP, and Shell and Elf?

US unemployment 6% and shrinking.

How many jobs have been created under Bush again? Oh, thats right the US has been losing jobs under Bush. Isn't it about 3 million jobs that have been lost over the last 3 and a half years? Yet unemployment still manages to go down. How can that be?

[Maxim Litvinov]

You are not even extrapolating trends. You are basing your arguments on prejudiced stereotypes and 'assuming' that these somehow play out in the long-term economic environment. "Oh, the French people will never be part of a Europe that can rival the US, because they are too left-wing, they are too busy drinking coffee, it has dulled their brain and they can't innovate, and they want to spend their money helping the poor rather than investing in business. The French don't even have a word for 'entrepreneur'. They also hate the Germans for WWII, so therefore we *know* that Europe will never work".

Get real. This is not a thread for poor cultural stereotypes or 'country bashing'. I don't see why I should have to continue to remind you of this.

It's hard to know what an 'American' or a 'European' country is these days, because companies are listed on multiple stock markets and have international investors. But generally European companies include - Daimler, Nokia, Ericsson, Volkswagen, GlaxoSmithKline, Alcatel, Bayer, Bosch, BASF, Michelin, Volvo, L'Oreal, Vodafone, Electrolux etc. Europe is a by-word for innovation and culture, whether you're talking about communications, transportation or haut couture. If you don't see new industry coming out of Europe, then you are not looking.

But, in the end, any comparison of companies is quite laughable. The European is no less prone to innovation than his American cousin. European productivity is higher than US productivity, European unemployment is also higher. Total GDP of America and Europe is about equal. Europe is still recovering from integrating former Soviet bloc countries with large unemployment, America is struggling with its links with the Hispanic south.

But again - you seem to be resulting to simplistic arguments because these are the easiest way for you to delight in what you perceive as America's 'superiority' over Europe. To shout 'whoohoo' [sic] as you delight in the numbers of Europeans out of work.

Far be it for you to identify in detail the meaning of such statistics. Far be it for you to work through what the economic implications of a united Europe might be 50 years down the track. No - if you can keep this thread on about how 'fanciful' it is that socialist Europe will ever outpace America - then you will have accomplished your goals: to make lame attacks rather than engage in reasoned argument.

Finally, I point out again - I am not from Europe or America.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

As far as I'm aware Ukraine no longer has any nuclear weapons, they sold them to the Russians in 1991 (All of them). I'm not sure if they have ICBMs either. Since the weapon is half the equation, you need the delivery system also

No, only Russia, China, and US have ICBMs. France and the UK have SLBMs (Submarine Launched Ballistic Missiles)

[TROI]

They are still inter-contitnental.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Your analysis is tawdry, you still haven't bothered answering the one question I asked of you, and it is quite clear now that you see the whole thread as an exercise in bashing the 'continental nations'.

If a deficit means that 'European countries are broke', then this analysis plays out very badly indeed for a US economy with record deficits.

Tawdry, yeah right. Great fact filled rebuttal.
I answered your questions several times. READ the thread.
Your point is pointless.
The US already has the best military and has no need to build one.
Our deficit started with 9/11 and the war on terror. We can pay it off in a couple of years like we did in the past.
Eurobrokes are spending deficits just to keep going. That is a vast difference.

Ever heard of Nokia? In maybe? What about Ikea (whose owner may or may not be the richest man in the world)? Mercedes, BMW - do they ring a bell? Volkswagen - have you heard or that one? What about petroleum companies such as BP, and Shell and Elf?

Jesus! I said NEW. You know NEW companies that were in garages just a couple of years ago. Hitler started VW and it does not sell worth squat in the US. It's OLD just like Europe.
Nokia? I think they started in 1987 or 17 years ago.
You have a funny idea on the meaning of the word NEW.
Ikea was founded in 1943 this is pathetic!!
Old crap with old pathetic ideas.
Cell phones are a dime dozen, everyone has one or three.
Mercedes! Is that your idea of new?
We have GM thank you. Bigger and better.
See what I mean? Nothing new, just old crap. Pathetic.
I list off Dell, Intel, Microsoft, Google, Yahoo, Hummer and you folks come back with companies started by Hitler as examples of new startups.
It's hysterical!
Motorola put the cell phone on store shelves and the rest copied the technology. Yeah, Motorola is still in there. The company re-invents its self about every 5 years or so going into new technology and letting others fight it out with the really brutal competition as the copy cats come on line.
Petroleum. Swell, that accounts for the EU sucking up to the Arab terrorists. Swell. You have a funny idea of NEW and INNOVATIVE.
The US is going to build it's anti-missile system this year.
How long until EU builds theirs?

Do you see how pathetic this exchange is?

[Devlar]

If the submarine launchers are interncontinetal then I rest my case. Europe doesn't need an offensive army, since essencially they have the stalemate card right there. They should set up some sort of peacekeeping force, but there is really no reason to invest in any more serious offensive arms (maybe more delivery systems though)

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Invest in Star Wars

[Devlar]

Russia has actually been talking to the EU about developing a European Missile Defense Shield. That would be a deal with the devil, although not much of a trade from NATO

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Russia has actually been talking to the EU about developing a European Missile defence Shield. That would be a deal with the devil, although not much of a trade from NATO

I'm sure Russia can develop anything and everything if they get financed. I'm sure Russia's idea is to probably try to get financing from the EU so they can develop a shield.

[Piano Red]

Russia has actually been talking to the EU about developing a European Missile defence Shield. That would be a deal with the devil, although not much of a trade from NATO

Um, I assume you haven't heard of the recent talks with several European nations to have the US deploy a few anti-missile defense systems to Europe once their operational this year I assume? Talk about deal with the devil.

[Devlar]

Well Russia has always had good ideas, but never the technology to make them (see Stealth Bomber). The fact that they just recently convicted a man of spying for the CIA, selling submarine technology to the US (most likely that super quiet torpedo), means that they are still producing high quality military technology, even if the state of their forces is well, to be blunt, shit.

My problem is that Russia still has imperial aspirations in all of this, thus they aren't suggesting a missile shield to protect Europe out of their concern for Europe but as a method of curtailing US influence and expanding theirs.

several European nations to have the US deploy

Let me guess, eastern Europe and the Baltics...?

[Maxim Litvinov]

Rostem - troll away, my friend.

You tried to show that the EU was a pipe dream - that failed.

Now you are attempting to somehow link new brand name recognition in the US to the EU failing economically.

Can I give you some advice - pretending that you can understand it for a minute? If you want to do quantitative research about the future economic strength of the EU, then start with GDP and new business ventures. Factor in the short-term effects of a growing market in the East. Factor in some limited increased economies of scale as the result of integration, factor in geographical advantages, factor in various scales of current productivity and education, look at the changing face of global export markets, the scale of foreign investment and the likely change in company taxes.... When you have done all this then you will be on your way to having some sort of meaningful analysis of what the future holds economically for the EU.

But, saying "the EU is economic shit because it is socialist - you're just weak and will probably starve soon", or saying "I know so many more new US companies than European companies - this must mean that US economy = good and European economy = bad" ... well, these are two of the worst so-called 'economic' arguments I have ever seen. Even the idea that the 15+ European nations are 'socialist' would send any political scientist frothing at the mouth.

It is just so gut-wrenchingly stupid. Tawdry, indeed.

[Bonjour!]

Rostem is a typical dimwitted american idiot who is deathly afraid of the Union and thus is doing everything in his power to verbally attack it. Dream on, loser. Once the EU gets its independent military together it will kick your arse to Mars. Already European industry is outdoing american industry. This Saturday, it will be the biggest economic bloc in the world.... keep being afraid Rustem!

P.S. Germany has, as of last Fall, toppled the US as world's leading exporter. Deutschland Uber Alles!!

[Devlar]

Now now, be nice there is no point in bringing personal attacks into it. Don't become what you dislike

[Comrade Ogilvy]

P.S. Germany has, as of last Fall, toppled the US as world's leading exporter. Deutschland Uber Alles!!
Tawdry and illmannered reply. Really pathetic and without value. Stupid socialist propaganda.

I mention the fact that the Eurolosers don't ever invent anything except higher taxes and more deficits and you losers come back with flames!
Where are your startups? Hmmm?
Where it not for the US you people would still be exchanging smoke signals!

As for Germany, well they always talk really big BEFORE a war and then end up selling their sister for a Hershey bar and a pack of Luckies AFTER the war. Been there, seen it TWICE.

The EU is a huge gaggle of Socialist losers hanging on to each other like some punch drunk two-bit fighters. No new products, no innovations, just the same old crap.
The US produces more new products and companies every 5 years than the EU produces.
LOL!
EU 10+% unemployment. Folks looking for work and can't find it.
US 6% unemployment and that number is shrinking almost daily even with the constant influx of Mexicans running from their country and towards the future.

Anyone can see what's going on.
EU no military, no new products, no new corporations and no future.
High deficits just trying to keep the sheeple fat, dumb and happy.

US best military in the world, tons of new products every year, new and innovative corporations formed constantly, world leader.
Well, I'm sorry I hit a really big nerve by exposing how pathetic your system is. No upstarts. Imagine that. Just copy other people's work and get into a field after the US has raked most of the profit.
Pathetic.

I wonder why no new products, no new pharmaceuticals, no new services come out of the EU.

Is it the people? Nope, folks are the same all over the world.
Is it the system? Yah sure, you betcha. Socialism guarantees mediocracy and is risk averse. Chickenshits hanging on to the government for life support. Pathetic. No drive, no invention, no innovation. Just mediocracy and copy other people's thechnology.

Everytime you sit down to send me a flame just remember the computer was brought to market by American CHILDREN -college dropouts.
Windows - American
Intel - American
Search engine - American
Internet - American
You are totally dependent on the US even to just send me a simple flame!

Do you see how pathetic that is?

[Bonjour!]

Discouraged Job-Seekers Mask True Jobless Rate
Sun January 11, 2004 10:26 AM ET

By Andrea Hopkins
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - For President Bush and his economic team, Friday's news that the U.S. jobless rate fell to its lowest level in more than a year must have looked heartening -- at first.

But a closer look at the Labor Department report told a far bleaker story, with 433,000 Americans categorized as "discouraged workers" -- those who have given up looking for a job because they have abandoned hope of finding one.

In December alone, Labor statisticians dropped 309,000 Americans from the labor force, no longer counting them as unemployed because they have stopped looking for work. That cut the participation rate to just 66 percent, a level not plumbed since recession-plagued 1991.

Economists believe the drop in the labor force masks a much higher jobless rate -- perhaps as high as 9 percent, according to Anthony Chan, chief economist at Banc One Investment Advisors in Columbus, Ohio.

"The decline in the unemployment rate is the most misleading aspect of this employment report," said Chan. "It's a sham because of how we got there -- the labor force dropped precisely because more people became discouraged."

Usually, out-of-work Americans rejoin the job hunt as the economy strengthens, believing growth will spur hiring. But despite more than two years of expansion since the end of the 2001 recession, America remains locked in a jobless recovery and the labor force is falling, not rising.

NOT BUYING THE HYPE

Wells Fargo chief economist Sung Won Sohn said all the talk lately about the booming economy and rising stock market did little to persuade employers or job-seekers that their prospects were picking up as 2003 drew to a close.

"Despite all the hoopla, neither businesses nor potential employees have confidence in the economy. They're not believing all the stories about a strong and healthy economy given by the economists and the government," Sohn said.

"Economic growth is great, but the job market is lousy."

While the economy raced ahead at an annual rate of 8.2 percent in the third quarter of 2003 on the back of Bush's summer tax cuts and a booming housing market, job growth remains tepid. Since July, 278,000 nonfarm jobs have been created -- paling in comparison to the 2.3 million lost since Bush took office.

Sohn said many of the discouraged workers are likely refugees from the factory sector, where 2.8 million jobs have been cut in 41 straight months since the industry's last peak in July 2000. With many jobs gone forever to cheap-labor countries like China or India, workers have little hope of finding work that can compare with the $20-an-hour jobs they lost, Sohn said.

"People who lost jobs in manufacturing, especially some of the older workers, they look at the landscape and say, 'why should I waste my time?' And they simply drop out of the labor force," Sohn said.

Also see
http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.ph ... employment

[Comrade Ogilvy]

Look, I'm bombarded by that junk daily right here in the good old US of A.
It's election year!
Election year means all you get is hogwash.
The stock market is a great indicator and the unemployed are around 6%
I have never paid much attention to the "discouraged job seekers" baloney because they have to get money somewhere.
They are either on unemployment or working or starving to death in the dark.
Since I have not seen any pictures of folks starving to death in the dark, at least not in the US, I take a lot of it with a grain of salt.
Our Democratic party is a vile, evil Socialist pos party who's speciality is crying. They cry about everything.

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library ... rybaby.jpg

Yet, Bush is leading in the polls and that tells you all you want to know.
Watch the numbers and figures after the election. It's always amazing how they change.
Right now I'm trying to avoid all the election hype because our elections for President run for an entire year and the junk coming out of both sides is enough to make a maggot puke.
Truth is almost impossible to find in an election year.
All I know is what is published. 6% and shrinking.

[Bonjour!]

Hey Rustbag,

You know the European stock market is doing better than your Yank stock market, despite the fact that your government lies to you on a constant basis, right?