[Beren]

I don't think the EU is even remotely bluffing when they say they will not negotiate any further.

How would the Eurotruck be bluffing when playing chicken with Rover Britain or Fiat Italia? As Tusk says they're prepared for total collision too, but they're most prepared for no collision at all, of course.

[Rugoz]

You weren't wrong. The UK cannot unilaterally withdraw from this backstop which, if it kicks in after the transition period, covers the whole of the UK. The EU basically has a veto. Hence, there's zero incentive for the EU to agree to anything at all, so this potentially locks in the UK permanently.

The withdrawal agreement basically continues EU membership for 2 years, or potentially more (if both sides agree). The backstop on the other hand doesn't include free movement or contributions to the EU budget, among other things. They're different. Still, I don't think the backstop is acceptable for the UK in the long term. The fact that it even exists suggests it's meant to secure bargaining power for future negotiations.

[Nonsense]

She could stuff the cabinet with Martians now and it wouldn't make a ha'porth of difference. The EU member states have collectively ruled out any redrafting of the withdrawal agreement.

Nonsense -
Which means the efforts by those 'Leavers' still in her cabinet will not bear fruit, so, the options to eject her from her seat as PM will possibly result from either a 22 committee vote, or one on her 'deal' with the E.U in parliament, that, should\will she lose that vote the impetus to get that 48 votes for a leadership challenge will come to the fore again.

Thereafter, it's 'game over' for her, we the people(taxpayers & our children-grandchildren) will pick the tab up for the immense political-financial damage which she,with her party have done to our country & people in recent years.

[Nonsense]

It's as surprising to me as it is to you.

However, I didn't understand the overjoy when he got elected. He just looked like another middle-class Austrian that likes skiing and cake with coffee.

Kurz is just another europhile that smells a 'sugar daddy'(U.K)a mile off, something any 'Leaver' could do.

He woke up & smelt the coffee, something that Theresa MAY is too thick to recognise.

'Remainers' like Theresa MAY know that is the way to scupper British independence.
Hence the subordinate vassal state status to which the U.K will be reduced to if we accept the dogs breakfast that she has agreed to with the E.U, that is the BETRAYAL- TREACHERY that she has done to this country & it's people in perpetuity.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

The withdrawal agreement basically continues EU membership for 2 years, or potentially more (if both sides agree). The backstop on the other hand doesn't include free movement or contributions to the EU budget, among other things. They're different. Still, I don't think the backstop is acceptable for the UK in the long term. The fact that it even exists suggests it's meant to secure bargaining power for future negotiations.

You are right that the conditions of transition period and backstop are different, but it's also true that the UK cannot withdraw unilaterally.

It can only withdraw if gets to a stage where the NI backstop (protocol) is no longer considered necessary. The assumption is that alternative arrangements will be negotiated by the UK and EU to achieve that as part of the future relationship. It's easy to imagine a situation where the EU won't negotiate aspects that solve the NI issue until everything else is agreed to its satisfaction. So the EU is able to lock in the UK permanently unless it gets everything it wants. As far as I'm concerned that's essentially veto power by the EU on the ability of the UK to leave the backstop.

-------------------

Just read a comment by a constitutional lawyer saying the UK can always break international law to get out. The attempts to "de-dramatise" this are getting truly comical.

[noemon]

It's easy to imagine a situation where the EU won't negotiate aspects that solve the NI issue until everything else is agreed to its satisfaction. So the EU is able to lock in the UK permanently unless it gets everything it wants. As far as I'm concerned that's essentially veto power by the EU on the ability of the UK to leave the backstop.

That is just a truism, not particularly meaningful and effectively sensationalistic anti-EU propaganda. The UK can exit the backstop and put a hard-border between Northern Ireland and Ireland. The UK's problem will not be the EU but the unity of the UK itself. The reason the UK is negotiating with the EU an open border in Ireland is because the UK is the one that is requesting a frictionless border with the EU and to receive this frictionless border it has to agree to the terms for that border(.ie the backstop). Is there another way? What is your magical solution to make Brexiteers happy? Let the UK assume total control of the UK-EU borders. So that goods, people, services flow freely and without friction from the UK to the EU but not from the EU to the UK? Other than actually going there and explicitly calling for that, anything else just brings us back to the necessity of the Irish backstop.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

That is just a truism, not particularly meaningful and effectively sensationalistic anti-EU propaganda. The UK can exit the backstop and put a hard-border between Northern Ireland and Ireland.

There is not mechanism in the agreement that lets the UK exit unilaterally.

[B0ycey]

There is not mechanism in the agreement that lets the UK exit unilaterally.

Sure there is. It is an agreement, you can basically ignore it and break away from it - like Trump is doing right now! But by doing so you need to then bring in customs checks to fulfil WTO rules as the UK will have different standards to the EU which then violates the Good Friday Agreement.

FYI if the objective is to just walk away from the GFA then there is and never has been a problem with the Irish border.

[Nonsense]

It's because the Irish question has led to the current impasse, that I previously proposed a possible solution, which, although the Tory Party-DUP would dislike it, the decision would be that of ALL the Irish to make & eliminate any borders on Ireland by placing them around the rest of the U.K.

That is a 'unification' referendum, a single question, " Should the two halves of the island be joined into an independent single national entity"?

If the answer is 'YES', Ireland as a whole would position itself within the E.U, once recognised by the European Community.
The 'Backstop' would then be nullified with respect to BREXIT.

If 'NO', the status quo would not change & the Irish question would remain.

[B0ycey]

It's because the Irish question has led to the current impasse, that I previously proposed a possible solution, which, although the Tory Party-DUP would dislike it, the decision would be that of ALL the Irish to make & eliminate many borders on Ireland by placing them around the rest of the U.K.

That is a 'unification' referendum, a single question, " Should the two halves of the island be joined into an independent single national entity"?

If the answer is 'YES', Ireland as a whole would position itself within the E.U, once recognised by the European Community.
The 'Backstop' would then be null & void to BREXIT.

If 'NO', the status quo would not change & the Irish question would remain.

Sure Nonsense, if the UK just wants to hand over NI to Ireland that too will solve the Irish border problem. Doesn't do much about saving the Union though.

[Nonsense]

Sure Nonsense, if the UK just wants to hand over NI to Ireland that too will solve the Irish border problem. Doesn't do much about saving the Union though.

Mmm! seems to me, a 'union' of North-South would be a positive thing.

If you mean Ireland as a whole-U.K, that will NEVER happen.

If you mean the 'union' of the DUP-Tory Party, that will be devoid of substance if they voted 'YES' & will still be that way after the next general election anyway.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Sure there is. It is an agreement, you can basically ignore it and break away from it - like Trump is doing right now! But by doing so you need to then bring in customs checks to fulfil WTO rules as the UK will have different standards to the EU which then violates the Good Friday Agreement.

No. Treaties usually include exit mechanisms that let a country terminate unilaterally. And while we are at it, arbitration panels are usually completely neutral and don't refer certain issues to the court of one side, as this agreement does.

The UK can only unilaterally walk away by breaking international law.

I've commented on the GFA and the nonsense that is peddled in relation to it before and I'm not going to repeat it.

[ingliz]

It's easy to imagine a situation where the EU won't negotiate aspects that solve the NI issue until everything else is agreed to its satisfaction.

If the UK believes a solution to the NI problem has been found and the EU doesn't, the UK can take the dispute to independent arbitration (See Article 170 of the withdrawal agreement).

[B0ycey]

Mmm! seems to me, a 'union' of North-South would be a positive thing.

Not to the Protestants it isn't. Have you forgotten the troubles since your old age? Unless you are Irish Catholic you are in the minority Nonsense. But if that is what you want who am I to argue.

If you mean Ireland as a whole-U.K, that will NEVER happen.

No shit.

If you mean the 'union' of the DUP-Tory Party, that will be devoid of substance if they voted 'YES' & will still be that way after the next general election anyway.

Union as the "United Kingdom", not the coalition. Fuck me, was it not obvious to you?

[B0ycey]

No. Treaties usually include exit mechanisms that let a country terminate unilaterally. And while we are at it, arbitration panels are usually completely neutral and don't refer certain issues to the court of one side, as this agreement does.

The UK can only unilaterally walk away by breaking international law.

I've commented on the GFA and the nonsense that is peddled in relation to it before and I'm not going to repeat it.

It is a backstop not a treaty. It is simply a mechanism to continue the current open border in Ireland if negotiations are on going after the transition period. This was a request from the UK not the EU who just wanted NI to remain on the customs union. The alternative for the UK is to not have a backstop and walk away.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

If the UK believes a solution to the NI problem has been found and the EU doesn't, the UK can take the dispute to independent arbitration (See Article 170 of the withdrawal agreement).

Please tell us the criteria based on which the arbitration panel will make that decision and how the UK would be able to achieve them without EU cooperation.

It is a backstop not a treaty.

Don't embarrass yourself please.

It is simply a mechanism to continue the current open border in Ireland if negotiations are on going after the transition period. This was a request from the UK not the EU who just wanted NI to remain on the customs union. The alternative for the UK is to not have a backstop and walk away.

The NI backstop originates with the EU. This (insane) backstop covering the whole of the UK was put forward in response to it.

[Nonsense]

[quote="B0ycey"]Not to the Protestants it isn't. Have you forgotten the troubles since your old age? Unless you are Irish Catholic you are in the minority Nonsense. But if that is what you want who am I to argue.

Nonsense - The Protestants are the tail, trying to wag the British dog, a referendum in Ireland would sort them out for good, if the political tide keeps ebbing away from them as it is\has been since peace was brokered there.

No shit.



Union as the "United Kingdom", not the coalition. Fuck me, was it not obvious to you?

Nonsense - Was it 'obvious' from your post, I think not, any other mind readers about?

[B0ycey]

Don't embarrass yourself please.

Embarrass myself? It is what it is Kaiser. It's a bloody backstop. When the UK no longer wants to negotiate everything is over. This agreement is over. Stop acting as if the EU is a bully because it wants to protect its Single Market.

The NI backstop originates with the EU. This (insane) backstop covering the whole of the UK was put forward in response to it.

Not this backstop Kaiser, another. This one is the UK making because May was asked to come up with an idea that stops the border being in the Irish Sea. This was her solution. But it is important to note the backstop remains as long as negotiations are still taking place. It is the target to get these negotiations finalised before a backstop is required BTW. And if the EU drag their feet (your claim) it is up to the UK to decide what they want to do about how far they want to take talks isn't it? This isn't as fixed as you think it is. Only if the goal is to maintain an open Irish border.

[Nonsense]

"Kaiserschmarrn"]Please tell us the criteria based on which the arbitration panel will make that decision and how the UK would be able to achieve them without EU cooperation.

Nonsense - If that idiot of a 'prime minister' had not agreed to the Draft, there would be no need for arbitration, she dug a hole, which is getting deeper & she keeps digging, that's why she is an idiot.

MERKEL says that because the papers are on the table, no further changes are possible from their side.

BUT, those papers are only a 'draft', yet that idiot of a prime minister of ours is intent on signing it off with the E.U leaders as a 'Treaty', what idiots voted for her last year?

That's why 'Leavers' in the Tory Party want rid of her, the time is now to do it, NOT after any 'Treaty' is signed off.

People complain of what will happen if we leave without a deal, compared to that situation, staying perpetually in the E.U will be far, far worse than you can imagine.

[Eauz]

Britain should join Canada so we can go burn down the White House again and reclaim the land that rightfully belongs to the U.K.