[Falleen Prince Xizor]

i'd be quite happy to see the UK as the 51st state.

Fine. How do you propose to tow The British Isles across The Atlantic ?

I'm not that fussy.

they didn't have to tow Hawaii....

Wow FPX I just love your always worth while contribution to discussion.

really?

i thought i was just being an ass... thanks for the reaasurance!

[Mod's edit: Looks like I missed that indeed! Please keep this topic and this forum *serious*; if you want to have fun, there's the Gorkiy, here it's for discussion. And if you don't obey, I send the NKVD! Hehe.]

[The European]

As I've said before, there is no way of creating a common European voice. Its either there or it isn't.

Are you saying things can never change? Because thats a bit presumtious unless you can see the future

We can survive on our own. Trade seems to be the Europhiles only argument for staying in but our trade with the EU is not dependent on membership since non-EU countries like Norway and Switzerland have free access to EU markets as do non-European countries like the US and Japan.

I never said we couldent survive on our own. But i think there is a difference betweeen just surviving and moving on to bigger and better things. Also I don't think trade is the "Europhiles" only argument, its simply the one they think you Euroskeptics will accept. I for one want the EU to evolve into a federal state, that is my main reason for supporting it, not trade which i don't know enough about to comment on.

[Englishman]

It's simple. If you trade goods and services across economic borders, the price you agree on is ultimately currency dependent. The British worker will not accept his wages in francs, the French consumer will not pay in sterling. Every time the value of one currency shifts against another, someone loses out on the deal. THis isn't such a problem if all your neighbours have different currencies, but if they all have a common currency, you make yourself a uniquely unattractive trading partner because of currency instability. This is happening already. The only way round it is to subsidise domestic produce so that you can sell abroad at below market value. This is also happening already, but it can't continue indefinitely.

I'm no economist but this argument seems to be about exchange rates. Only 1/3rd of the British economy is taken up with foreign trade and half of that is with trade with the EU. So only a small part of the British economy will see any benefit at all. Of those that will benefit, the large corporations have economies of scale that enable them to account for exchange costs in any case.

As for those that will not benefit, the majority of businesses, they will still have to pay to convert equipment, machines, tills etc without gaining anything from it.

Its interesting that despite being "uniquely unattractive" trading partner, Britains trade with the EU has not been affected. We still attract more inward investment than France and Germany put together.

Much of the paranoia about the Euro is quite amusing. The right think it's a Franco-German conspiracy to introduce socialism through the back door and the left think it's an imperialist conspiracy to increase monopolies and further the influence of Europe's richest few.

You mean it isn't? Huge power is held by France and Germany and those two are the driving force behind much of the integration. Look at the way they ignored the euros budget rules (Italy also now, but thats no real surprise). Do you really think a small country like Holland or Finland would get away with it?

I never said we couldent survive on our own. But i think there is a difference betweeen just surviving and moving on to bigger and better things. Also I don't think trade is the "Europhiles" only argument, its simply the one they think you Euroskeptics will accept. I for one want the EU to evolve into a federal state, that is my main reason for supporting it, not trade which i don't know enough about to comment on.

Is the EU really a bigger and better thing? Its corrupt, undemocratic, inefficient, bureaucratic, over-centralised, heavily protectionist and totally divided.

The trouble with many Europhiles is that they cannot see the forest through the trees. The dream of creating a perfect European utopia that is clean, safe, peaceful and united seems to cloud their judgement.

[Slip, Freudian]

I'm no economist but this argument seems to be about exchange rates. Only 1/3rd of the British economy is taken up with foreign trade and half of that is with trade with the EU. So only a small part of the British economy will see any benefit at all.

"only a small part"?!?! Thats a lot of money flowing you know. I can clearly see you are no economist.

As for those that will not benefit, the majority of businesses, they will still have to pay to convert equipment, machines, tills etc without gaining anything from it.

They don't have to, and they will benefit. Especially the big companies like to do business with ISO certified businesses.

Its interesting that despite being "uniquely unattractive" trading partner, Britains trade with the EU has not been affected. We still attract more inward investment than France and Germany put together.

Who says Britain is unattractive? Besides, those investments could even larger if investing to Britain would be easier.

Much of the paranoia about the Euro is quite amusing. The right think it's a Franco-German conspiracy to introduce socialism through the back door and the left think it's an imperialist conspiracy to increase monopolies and further the influence of Europe's richest few.

You mean it isn't? Huge power is held by France and Germany and those two are the driving force behind much of the integration. Look at the way they ignored the euros budget rules (Italy also now, but thats no real surprise). Do you really think a small country like Holland or Finland would get away with it?

Would you think that they would have fined Holland for failing to control it's economy? It makes no sense to punish an already suffering economy. If that would have been done these countries would leave the EU or something, they are not stupid. These were rules, not a law.

I never said we couldent survive on our own. But i think there is a difference betweeen just surviving and moving on to bigger and better things. Also I don't think trade is the "Europhiles" only argument, its simply the one they think you Euroskeptics will accept. I for one want the EU to evolve into a federal state, that is my main reason for supporting it, not trade which i don't know enough about to comment on.

Is the EU really a bigger and better thing? Its corrupt, undemocratic, inefficient, bureaucratic, over-centralised, heavily protectionist and totally divided.

Corrupt? I do not think so. Everything else might be true, but you must admit that the idea of EU is nice. No one can see anything bad in promoting human rights and ecomic wellbeing.

The trouble with many Europhiles is that they cannot see the forest through the trees. The dream of creating a perfect European utopia that is clean, safe, peaceful and united seems to cloud their judgement.

I do not think this is the case. They clearly see the good and the bad, but no system is perfect, and they honestly believe that the EU is good for them and the rest of the world.

[Bill Cosby]

Much of the paranoia about the Euro is quite amusing. The right think it's a Franco-German conspiracy to introduce socialism through the back door and the left think it's an imperialist conspiracy to increase monopolies and further the influence of Europe's richest few.

You mean it isn't? Huge power is held by France and Germany and those two are the driving force behind much of the integration. Look at the way they ignored the euros budget rules (Italy also now, but thats no real surprise). Do you really think a small country like Holland or Finland would get away with it?

Would you think that they would have fined Holland for failing to control it's economy? It makes no sense to punish an already suffering economy. If that would have been done these countries would leave the EU or something, they are not stupid. These were rules, not a law.

Frankly, both of you seem not to know anything about the process, when someone breaks the budget rules.
First of all, you get a chance to get back on your feets by yourself, then the commisson gives advices, if the advices are ignored that's no problem, as long as the meassures taken by the country itself are working.
If not, the comssion gives advices which need to be followed, otherwise the country will be fined, that's actually whyt happend to Germany with the "Agenda 2010".
So Germany doesnt ignore the budget rules, it just takes time, and I don't know in which state France is right now.

[SueDeNîmes.]

I'm no economist but this argument seems to be about exchange rates. Only 1/3rd of the British economy is taken up with foreign trade and half of that is with trade with the EU. So only a small part of the British economy will see any benefit at all.

Yeah it's exchange rates, but it goes deeper than losing a few quid in currency conversion. Say you make cars in Britain for sale in France. You work out how much you can sell the cars for (in Euros) and how much it will cost you to make them (in £ - your workforce and suppliers need money they can spend on home soil). Then, say, the pound rises in value against the Euro. Suddenly you're not getting as good a return for sale of your cars after paying workforce and suppliers - even though the consumer is paying the same. You have to either charge more for the cars or absorb the loss yourself (in Britain the worker usually absorbs the loss).

A simplification, but you get the idea. In tough international competition with tight margins, it can easily mean the difference between a proftable deal and a loss. And unless you are willing to absorb the cost, your trading partners will prefer to do business where an agreed price will stick.

Englishman, I think European trade accounts for rather more than 50%, but never mind - it's still more than we could bear to lose.

Its interesting that despite being "uniquely unattractive" trading partner, Britains trade with the EU has not been affected. We still attract more inward investment than France and Germany put together.

That might have something to do with the daft Brits working longer hours for less money with less paid leave, sick pay, pension provision etc. That and the gov't subsidising inward investors (most of whom have their eye on that big market across the channel) to compensate for currency instability.

And, as Slip Freudian says, take away the currency barrier and things can only get better. Personally, as long as I'm working sensible hrs for fair money, I couldn't care less whose head is on the coins.

[Englishman]

According to the Pink Book (2001) 43% of Britain's trade is with the Eurozone, which takens account of all visible and invisible exports and investment. The dollar is a much more important currency to us and the euro has been much more volatile against the dollar which would damage the majority of our trade.

So investors have their eye on the big market across the channel. According to surveys of foreign investors in Britain, the main attractions are the English language, the flexible labour market and the low(er) amount of regulation, all reasons unconnected with the EU.

The British do work longer hours but look at what the 35 hour week has done to France. It has increased unemployment as businesses move elsewhere and some European politicians have acknowledged that there will have to be changes to the system.

I still say its much better to keep control of our own currency so we can set our own taxes and interest rates. Britains interests are far better looked after in Britain than Germany.
Look at the last time the £ was linked to a foreign currency. We had the ERM disaster only this time there would be no escape route.


Bill Cosby - What exactly is the point of having rules if you don't have to meet them? It makes a mockery of the whole notion of EMU.

"only a small part"?!?! Thats a lot of money flowing you know. I can clearly see you are no economist.

And there is a hell of a lot more money on the other side. You don't need to be an economist to see that our interests would be best served protecting the 5/6ths rather than the 1/6th.

They don't have to, and they will benefit. Especially the big companies like to do business with ISO certified businesses.

Where will the money come from then? How will a small business that does no trade with Europe benefit?

Who says Britain is unattractive? Besides, those investments could even larger if investing to Britain would be easier.

I was quoting another poster. If we want to make ourselves more attractive to investors then I suggest not going the European route.

Would you think that they would have fined Holland for failing to control it's economy? It makes no sense to punish an already suffering economy. If that would have been done these countries would leave the EU or something, they are not stupid. These were rules, not a law.

I doubt any continental country would willingly leave the EU seeing as they all get more money from the EU than they put into it. (Germany and Britain aside)

Corrupt? I do not think so. Everything else might be true, but you must admit that the idea of EU is nice. No one can see anything bad in promoting human rights and ecomic wellbeing.

The entire commission was forced to resign a couple of years ago for mass corruption. Almost all of the new commission are also under investigation for a variety of crimes including bribery, perjury and tax evasion, including the leader Prodi. Getting him to sort out corruption is likely asking McDonalds to look after your cow. Then there was the quota hopping scandal (for which the Spanish have not been punished) and the Greek and Italian paper olives saga. Remember the three year herring ban when all of the Latin countries continued to catch everything?

I do not think this is the case. They clearly see the good and the bad, but no system is perfect, and they honestly believe that the EU is good for them and the rest of the world.

And Hitler thought that his philsophy was for the good of Germany. He was just as passionate about it as todays Europhiles are about the EU.

[Tesl]

well, the ERM was a disaster for a few reasons, mainly because Major went into it at the wrong time (Sterling became massively overvalued [i think it was])

Now, on economic grounds i have some acceptance of the idea of the euro because i dont think it would be all bad. The idea however of a EU state just terrifies me, for a number of reasons.

I wont go into all that now anyway. Let me just say that, iv been away for the last week in southern France, where i spent some time learning french, seeing the views, meeting the people and spending a few euro's. I really enjoyed it, but i only enjoyed it because it was different. Had France been similar to Britain, i wouldnt have travelled out there. Diversity is a wonderful thing, i dont see why so many people are so intent on destroying it and bringing everything closer together =/

[Comrade Osnowski]

And Hitler thought that his philsophy was for the good of Germany. He was just as passionate about it as todays Europhiles are about the EU.

woah there matey, wake up on the wrong side of bed today did we? Now u can't just go around implying that anyone pro-EU is a Nazi....who's been a naughty Englishman?

According to the Pink Book (2001) 43% of Britain's trade is with the Eurozone, which takens account of all visible and invisible exports and investment.

But do you not know why it is at 43%? It's because those mainland dwelling Europeans are smarter than you think and would rather get something for Euro's than pay the sterling price of a 1/3rd more for the same thing.

The idea however of a EU state just terrifies me, for a number of reasons.

Had France been similar to Britain, i wouldnt have travelled out there. Diversity is a wonderful thing, i dont see why so many people are so intent on destroying it and bringing everything closer together =/

but closer unification will not lead to France being identical to Britain nor any other country...it will still be the France u have seen.


The EU is for strength in numbers and economic prosperity and anyone harbouring these stupid prejudices and racial generalisations are truely ignorant of our fellow Europeans. Ppl like Englishman erode daily the cultural and political amalgamation that Europe has made in the past 50yrs wit petty bigotries and rhetoric.

Grow up...not liking our continental brothers because of stupid nostalgic pride is very very petty and the only negative thing i can find with British culture

[Tesl]

Comrade, the reason i refer to culture barriers is because its important to the movement of labour. As long as there are cultural/language barriers around then labour will not move freely as it might in the states.

Besides, the people of europe are too diverse to be able to be happily supported in one state, things would need to be decentralised. And thats the opposite of what the EU wants and stands for. Ruling everything from Brussels will only breed inefficiency and problems anyhow.

When i made this thread i didnt know much about Europe anyway, but iv looked into it more since. The more i read about it, the more i dislike it

[Comrade Osnowski]

Thats because at the moment it is still neither a trade organisation or a supranational state. Once it is the latter, or even b4 then, there will be reform to make rule more efficient than the current system.

Comrade, the reason i refer to culture barriers is because its important to the movement of labour. As long as there are cultural/language barriers around then labour will not move freely as it might in the states.

Have u been hiding under a rock for the past 20yrs. The English language is the most commonly used international language in Europe. Whether there is or isn't closer integration is irrelevent...they will still spk our language

[Englishman]

well, the ERM was a disaster for a few reasons, mainly because Major went into it at the wrong time (Sterling became massively overvalued [i think it was])

There would never have been a right time to join the ERM because currency valuse are constantly changing.
Where a pound may be worth $1.50 in one year, it may be worth $2.00 the next.

And Hitler thought that his philsophy was for the good of Germany. He was just as passionate about it as todays Europhiles are about the EU.

woah there matey, wake up on the wrong side of bed today did we? Now u can't just go around implying that anyone pro-EU is a Nazi....who's been a naughty Englishman?

Yeah maybe I did jump the gun a bit but its interesting that a book by the name of Europaische Wirtschaft Gemeinschaft was published by the Nazis during WW2. The book outlined what would happen in Europe after Germany had won the war. There would be a single currency run by a single bank, common policies on agriculture, fishing and industry, one army, one foreign policy and one leader. Now where have I heard that before?

According to the Pink Book (2001) 43% of Britain's trade is with the Eurozone, which takens account of all visible and invisible exports and investment.

But do you not know why it is at 43%? It's because those mainland dwelling Europeans are smarter than you think and would rather get something for Euro's than pay the sterling price of a 1/3rd more for the same thing.

Actually Britain has a large trading deficit with Europe so they benefit more from trade with Britain than we do. Excahnge rates have little, if any, impact on trade. Even the IMF has said this.

The EU is for strength in numbers and economic prosperity and anyone harbouring these stupid prejudices and racial generalisations are truely ignorant of our fellow Europeans. Ppl like Englishman erode daily the cultural and political amalgamation that Europe has made in the past 50yrs wit petty bigotries and rhetoric.

Now who's making petty generalisations Mr Osnowski. Did you also get up on the wrong side of bed? Name one thing Britain has in common with Europe. Our legal system, weights and measures, history, language and economy are markedly different. We even drive on the other side of the road.

You should learn the lesson of history. Nations with large numbers of different people do not work and often descend into civil war and genocide. Just look at the USSR and Yugoslavia. The EU will go the same way. Helmut Kohl once said that nations who want to leave the EU should be prevented from doing so by armed force. Now the EU has an army. I'll leave you to ponder that one.

[SueDeNîmes.]

well, the ERM was a disaster for a few reasons, mainly because Major went into it at the wrong time (Sterling became massively overvalued [i think it was])

There would never have been a right time to join the ERM because currency valuse are constantly changing.
Where a pound may be worth $1.50 in one year, it may be worth $2.00 the next.

And that is why you need a single currency. Let's put the ERM chestnut to bed..

The EXCHANGE RATE Mechanism was not the same as the single currency. It was more like what we have now with bells on. Black Wednesday was caused by currency speculators - mainly George Soros. The Pound was pegged to the Deutschmark, but Soros recognised that the Pound's value derived from Britain's inflated stock market , whereas the Deutschmark's derived from Germany's technological and industrial might. In other words the pound was overvalued and he began to speculate against it. Others followed his lead in a tidal wave. A huge Sterling devaluation became a self fulfilling prophecy. The stock market went into panic and lost billions in a few hours before the plug was pulled.

Currency speculation is a dirty trick and currency instability is destructive and unnecessary. With a single currency you cut out all that horseshit in a oner.

[Comrade Osnowski]

Now who's making petty generalisations Mr Osnowski. Did you also get up on the wrong side of bed? Name one thing Britain has in common with Europe. Our legal system, weights and measures, history, language and economy are markedly different. We even drive on the other side of the road.

You should learn the lesson of history. Nations with large numbers of different people do not work and often descend into civil war and genocide. Just look at the USSR and Yugoslavia. The EU will go the same way. Helmut Kohl once said that nations who want to leave the EU should be prevented from doing so by armed force. Now the EU has an army. I'll leave you to ponder that one.

I do apologise, it would appear that not only had i got up on the wrong side off the bed...but sumone had shat in my slippers was a bad week...had a false alarm that my girlfriend was up the duff but i digress...

So, are u insinuating that there is a difference between ppl of a different nationality? For if that is the case i assure u there is not. We are not English, French, German, Spanish...we are human and the sooner ppl realise that the better.

Such tedious things as driving on a different side of the road should not stand in the way of friendship and alliance. Why would u choose to alienate yourself over such social constructs? The only reason that cultures differ are because of geographic boundaries and irrelevent feudal boundaries caused by rich men wanting more land and power. Times have changed, 100years ago it was sound foreign policy to invade your neighbour country for monetary gain...now it is not.

And remember where we live friend, I am sure somehwere along our nation's timeline our Barons bickered about how Anglo-Saxons, Normans and Celts could not live in one Kingdom...we did it, why can we not with our fellow Europeans...i assure u they will not abolish [regrettably] our monarch

[Englishman]

well, the ERM was a disaster for a few reasons, mainly because Major went into it at the wrong time (Sterling became massively overvalued [i think it was])

There would never have been a right time to join the ERM because currency valuse are constantly changing.
Where a pound may be worth $1.50 in one year, it may be worth $2.00 the next.

And that is why you need a single currency. Let's put the ERM chestnut to bed..

The EXCHANGE RATE Mechanism was not the same as the single currency. It was more like what we have now with bells on. Black Wednesday was caused by currency speculators - mainly George Soros. The Pound was pegged to the Deutschmark, but Soros recognised that the Pound's value derived from Britain's inflated stock market , whereas the Deutschmark's derived from Germany's technological and industrial might. In other words the pound was overvalued and he began to speculate against it. Others followed his lead in a tidal wave. A huge Sterling devaluation became a self fulfilling prophecy. The stock market went into panic and lost billions in a few hours before the plug was pulled.

Currency speculation is a dirty trick and currency instability is destructive and unnecessary. With a single currency you cut out all that horseshit in a oner.

The ERM had the same basic principle as the euro. To link the economies of Europe. Once again if we find ourselves with the wrong rates we could end up with an overheating economy or rampant inflation. Black Wednesday happened because Germany put its own interests ahead of the general European one, in spite of how others would be affected.

With a single currency we also ship all of our gold reserves to Frankfurt making an exit extremely difficult, put ourselves at the risk of having the wrong interest rates, higher umeployment, higher inflation, become liable for the national debts and pension liabilities of other member states (most of which are considerably higher), lose rights to North Sea oil and gas, become liable for heavier taxation to subsidise poorer Euro regions and worst of all we are one step closer to a new European Empire.

Mr Osnowski - I oppose the EU not because I hate the Germans or the French or anyone else but mainly because we gain nothing from it (as well as for the reasons I've listed above and can't be bothered listing again). I only used the road and culture arguments because you insinuated that we are all the same as Europeans. Britain is totally different from Europe in many ways. I've got nothing against European friendship and alliance. A Euro state is not necessary for this though.

Times have changed since the Angles and Saxons arrived. That was over 1000 years ago. Now there are established nations that have their own culture, heritage, way of life etc.

The Queen is one of the obstacles to a Euro superstate. I can assure you they will abolish the monarchy. She is already subject to EU law.

[Mike1]

Well i think the quick answer to that is influence. The major players of the EU in terms of economics and military power are the UK,France,Germany and Italy. Four of the richest countries in the world after the United States and Japan. With further integration we would be alot more credible. While we may still wield some influence in the world it is nothing compared to what we would have as a major player in a more integreted EU.

How can Britain have influence in a more integrating EU? The more integrated we come the more influence we would lose because more decisions would be taken for Europe as a whole and where no country could veto it.

[Comrade Osnowski]

You too are hiding behind outdated national borders also. The only difference being that yours extend from the Atlantic to the Urals. Why do you have a problem with nation states. What do you have against independent Italy, France and Denmark?

no i will be hiding behind new national borders, that of the EU. If a country wants to be independent then so be it, but it won't ever effect the outcome of any global political issue. Through pooling sovereignty we gain influence, our governments should be able to decide on matters based purely on the issue itself, not what trade tarrif will be imposed on them nor what aid will be cancelled

I had a feeling that you'd have some sort of problem with America, even though you speak passionately of us all being human beings.
Or shall we just say that all humans are equal but some are more equal than others?

you can dislike the fact that the American regime has us under it's boot without hating Americans. I hate a regime, not a populace. I have plenty of American friends who dislike their country's actions more than i do. Get your facts right b4 making ill informed accusations

If Britain's days are numbered then Europe's clock is certainly ticking, maybe faster. Its share of world trade is declining, its economy is stagnating, it has an ageing and declining population meaning fewer customers for British trade, high unemployment and a massive pensions crisis. Our best bet is to stick closer to the rest of the world rather than the dead duck that is Europe.

mate, at least their aging population they can still get decent pensions and medical treatment, unlike ours. If Britain wants to be in the EU, and therefore stonger in unity, or outside it, therefore Little America, then it'd better make up it's mind. If we do not integrate then we will be thrown out on our arses, and the latter option is so far getting the Union Jack burnt next to a certain Star Spangled Banner

Out of interest which EU commissioner did you vote for? I must have missed those elections. Was it Neil Kinnock or Chris Patten?

Once it becomes a state, it will be run like a state. Suffice to say at the moment it's little more than a trade club

For a nation to be successful all its citizens have to feel a part of that nation. That is why America has worked so well even though it has such a diverse population. If we were still to regard ourselves as British then that would rather defeat the purpose of a European state.

So you are not European? Funny as we are on the continent of Europe and our ancestral heritage is a dark age mish mash of continental Europeanism

[SueDeNîmes.]

The ERM had the same basic principle as the euro.

the EXCHANGE RATE Mechanism had a very different basic principle from the Euro. There is no exchange rate within a single currency.

..To link the economies of Europe.

They are already linked. Always have been - as comrade Osnowski points out. Now more so than ever -see globalisation

Once again if we find ourselves with the wrong rates we could end up with an overheating economy or rampant inflation. Black Wednesday happened because Germany put its own interests ahead of the general European one, in spite of how others would be affected.

What do you mean by "rates" ?

We have always managed to overheat our economy without any help from the Germans, who were innocent bystanders in balck Wednesday. Tell me specifically how you think otherwise

[Englishman]

no i will be hiding behind new national borders, that of the EU. If a country wants to be independent then so be it, but it won't ever effect the outcome of any global political issue. Through pooling sovereignty we gain influence, our governments should be able to decide on matters based purely on the issue itself, not what trade tarrif will be imposed on them nor what aid will be cancelled

So what exactly is the difference between new borders and old ones? We cannot have influence because we will be one voice in 25, a minority in the parliament etc etc.

you can dislike the fact that the American regime has us under it's boot without hating Americans. I hate a regime, not a populace. I have plenty of American friends who dislike their country's actions more than i do. Get your facts right b4 making ill informed accusations

Its the same with me and the EU. I hate the regime, not the people. Perhaps now you'll think twice before calling me anti-European.

mate, at least their aging population they can still get decent pensions and medical treatment, unlike ours. If Britain wants to be in the EU, and therefore stonger in unity, or outside it, therefore Little America, then it'd better make up it's mind. If we do not integrate then we will be thrown out on our arses, and the latter option is so far getting the Union Jack burnt next to a certain Star Spangled Banner

They certainly don't have decent pensions in Europe. France has promised pensions to its people that it cannot afford and has made no provisions. Britain is actually in a better position than most. France's health system is on the point of bankruptcy. If we join the euro the British taxpayer will become liable to pay these pension deficits.
And once again you move to the anti-American argument. If America didn't exist would you have any case at all?

Once it becomes a state, it will be run like a state. Suffice to say at the moment it's little more than a trade club

The only states I can think of that are run in the EU way are China and North Korea. Secretive and undemocratic.

For a nation to be successful all its citizens have to feel a part of that nation. That is why America has worked so well even though it has such a diverse population. If we were still to regard ourselves as British then that would rather defeat the purpose of a European state.

So you are not European? Funny as we are on the continent of Europe and our ancestral heritage is a dark age mish mash of continental Europeanism [/quote]

So what? Most of the Americas, Australia, New Zealnd are also European in ancestry and culture. Shall we invite them in as well? As I've already said Britain developed in a markedly different way to many European countries. There is no common European culture. Name one cultural element the whole of Europe shares?

the EXCHANGE RATE Mechanism had a very different basic principle from the Euro. There is no exchange rate within a single currency.

The idea wa to link the exchange rates or Europe and so gradually eliminate them altogether.

They are already linked. Always have been - as comrade Osnowski points out. Now more so than ever -see globalisation

Hence the name Economic and Monetary Union. Our economy is also strongly linked to that of America. The ultimate aim is to merge them into a single European economy.

We have always managed to overheat our economy without any help from the Germans, who were innocent bystanders in balck Wednesday. Tell me specifically how you think otherwise

Altough in the last ten years the mould has been broken. While Germany's economy has faltered we have had our strongest for 100 years. That argument that we need the Germans to run our economy is now out of date.
Germany knew that the currencies of other countries were pegged to its own and raised interest rates after unification. Britain had to correspond because our interest rates could not be below Germanys. This was also highly damaging for many EU countries. It showed that Germany was prepared to put its own interests ahead of the EU's.