- 21 Oct 2017 16:32
#14854626
Sivad seems to be a social Democrat not a Marxist.
Regardless, Socialism can be good or bad for, as an example, gay people. Stalin took over the USSR which Lenin had led to accept gay people and rolled that back.
There is no fundamental garuntee that a socialist country will provide civil rights to everyone. Claiming that there is no rational for socialism to do this misses that people don't need rational reasons to do things. It also misses that abusive power structures also exist in Marxist societies so things like sexual abuse aren't solved.
There were also a variety of racially motivated policies in the USSR like operation ulussy where they forcefully deported the kalmyk people. In 1937 the Soviets decided to systematically eliminate the Polish minority.
Bringing up a few positive examples doesn't prove that socialist societies will always spontaneously provide social justice.
Pointing out that capitalism can't produce a perfect society also doesn't invalidate my position. It cant be perfect but it can be better and ignoring the very real divisions in our society between various minorities and the white working class to focus on working class issues will not make those divisions go away.
Indeed ignoring the strongly held beliefs, history, and structures in a country that reinforce those divisions won't go away after a communist revolution unless they are specifically and delebritly addressed.
And besides, we don't have a Marxist revolution on the horizon. We have capitalism with an at best future of some sort of social Democratic reform. (Which I might add, I'm not against economic reforms. I support a lot of policies that would help all working class people). I not only have every right to address the problems in front of me but I have the responsibility to speak out about them when people try to shut down and invalidate those experiences, problems, and policy fixes so they can win some imaginary war with me about how I'm out to destroy the working class by wanting to get married and have protections from being denied services or a job because of my sexuality.
I'm not out to prevent working class policies by supporting BLM. Nor am I some lying social climber trying to profit off my sexuality as sivad alleged.
Bulaba Jones wrote:@mikema63
I'm going to have to disagree with you, Hillmike. Identity politics fuels all that intersectional stuff about creating distinctions between people and consciously creating divisions. The working class focus of Marxism includes, by proxy, rights for women and other at-risk or oppressed groups. In China, Vietnam, the Soviet Union, and even famously the Soviet-backed Afghan government made impressive strides for women's rights that outshined the capitalist world. Socialism has no rationale for oppressing women and LBGT individuals.
In contrast, it is fundamentally impossible for liberalism to ever resolve issues of equality, poverty, homelessness, food insecurity, etc because inequality and an impoverished yet powerless workforce is the basis of capitalism.
Sivad seems to be a social Democrat not a Marxist.
Regardless, Socialism can be good or bad for, as an example, gay people. Stalin took over the USSR which Lenin had led to accept gay people and rolled that back.
There is no fundamental garuntee that a socialist country will provide civil rights to everyone. Claiming that there is no rational for socialism to do this misses that people don't need rational reasons to do things. It also misses that abusive power structures also exist in Marxist societies so things like sexual abuse aren't solved.
There were also a variety of racially motivated policies in the USSR like operation ulussy where they forcefully deported the kalmyk people. In 1937 the Soviets decided to systematically eliminate the Polish minority.
Bringing up a few positive examples doesn't prove that socialist societies will always spontaneously provide social justice.
Pointing out that capitalism can't produce a perfect society also doesn't invalidate my position. It cant be perfect but it can be better and ignoring the very real divisions in our society between various minorities and the white working class to focus on working class issues will not make those divisions go away.
Indeed ignoring the strongly held beliefs, history, and structures in a country that reinforce those divisions won't go away after a communist revolution unless they are specifically and delebritly addressed.
And besides, we don't have a Marxist revolution on the horizon. We have capitalism with an at best future of some sort of social Democratic reform. (Which I might add, I'm not against economic reforms. I support a lot of policies that would help all working class people). I not only have every right to address the problems in front of me but I have the responsibility to speak out about them when people try to shut down and invalidate those experiences, problems, and policy fixes so they can win some imaginary war with me about how I'm out to destroy the working class by wanting to get married and have protections from being denied services or a job because of my sexuality.
I'm not out to prevent working class policies by supporting BLM. Nor am I some lying social climber trying to profit off my sexuality as sivad alleged.
My dream is a hemispheric common market, with open trade and open borders.