[smithbrian86]

Hello,

I found this article quite interesting. Having been born in the east and still being in constant contact with family and friends there, I would think it safe to say a definite anti-federalist sentiment is gaining support exponentially. Perhaps we could see Eastern Seperation as a new issue for Canada to deal with, I know I would support it.

Brian Smith

here is the article:
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/04/28/fish_protest030428

[smithbrian86]

The reason that "scarcity" is a problem in the east is due to economic and political decisions made quite a long time ago. I only endorse seperation as a last resort, and many Easterners feel that they are nearing the last resort. If under the flag of Canada, the East cannot prosper then they should have the right to attempt to acheive prosperity on their own. Btw, could you tell me more about Technocracy, I am always open to hearing a new idea.

Brian Smith

[Yeddi]

Maybe what you could do Kolzene, is set up a 'Sticky' in the technocracy forum where you explain everything, much like this intro, you could use it as your first post. I have to say this idea is most interesting, and i'm likeing what i see.

[Tigerlily]

Okay...I am actually going to go on topic here and talk about what this thread is about.

I live in Eastern/Atlantic Canada! So if Eastern Canada wants to seperate, it would no doubt effect me and my family.

I'm starting to read on seperatism in Quebec (more specifically, FLQ in the 60's and 70's). And this may sound strange but it sounds so exciting. ^_^ I'd probably want to help out with the propoganda and such if the maritimes ever wants to seperate, I'd probably go all out for it. Hehe.

[Deicidus]

It is never strange if you get exited about something like this. Freedom is not something to be taken lightly.

[Deicidus]

a) would it be more trouble, no
b) would it be more work, probably yes
c) is it worth it, YES

When you say that they bring separatism banner to get more votes, its quite contradictory when you say next that people are getting tired of it. Why would they bring it up if it was really going down ? If it was really a diying sentiment, theyd try to get as far away as possible

You should be carefull about where you get your information. In the Toronto Sun, a survey was done last year on separatism in Quebec so they crossed the border to ask questions. They came back with a 18% people wishing for a soveirgn Quebec. What they didnt tell you is that they asked Questions in neighborhoods like Westmount, Outremont and the upper Mont-Royal. And if you dont know this, none of the houses in these neighborhoods are to sell under 700 000$. Only 20% of the people in these neighborhoods are bilingual, and no, french isnt their first language.

Its not a question of race and language supramacy, its about survival.

Youve only heard that threat for 44 years, and not more than a century as you claim.

My grandfather was arrested in october 1970 and beaten while being interogated when your buddies came here with an imposed martial law ticket issued by Trudeau in their pockets. Thousands of people were arrested for no reason, thousands of houses were searched (when I say searched, it's with hammers and bats, destroying everything to make sure of nothing), protestors were gasez and beaten, 15 prisoners suffered permanent physical and psychological harm (like simulated executions, rough interogations and confrontations)
THANK GOD WE DONT LIVE UNDER AN OPPRESSIVE DICTATORSHIP

Separation is not a way to run away from the problems. Its a way to solve your own problems when you see that the ROC will not help you with them. And we cannot help ourselves because the federation counter-moves everything we try to do. Its a solution, not an evasive manner to turn our backs on the problem.

Canada has a few problems, sure, but we got problems of our own. We try to solve them. We've been together for 126 years, and the only people that helped us was ourselves.

I dont give a shit if your getting tired of hearing about it. I'm getting tired of people like you, people who never stepped a foot in Quebec and still say they know what we think. You should try reading The black book of English Canada or The whites N***** of america, youd understand better what the problem is.

The more we stay in Canada, the more we are in danger of becoming assimilated. My ancestors have dies for me and my brothers so we can be what we are today. I aprehended that this is something you cannot understand.

[Tigerlily]

Second, you're forgetting our good friends to the south. Not to accuse them of being imperialist or anything, but how long would either Quebec or the maritimes last with the drooling wolves living at their doorstep? I already fear for the whole country, but please, let's not carve ourselves up for them like a Thanksgiving turkey for crying out loud!

I am not sure what you mean exactly...but do you mean the States will come take over the part of the Canada that seperates? If you mean that then, well...I fear for that too. One of the reasons the British colonies got together (to form Canada) was to make sure we were better prepared for an American attack/take over/whatever you like to call it.

I don't see what the States would gain from taking the Maritimes except for the fisheries and patatoes. We have the highest unemployment rate in the country and lowest minimum wage...we'd just be a strain for the American government. But the wolves drooling at our footsteps
are a "threat" and that's one of the reasons I am uneasy about the Maritimes seperating.

[Deicidus]

Sure all of us staying together would be great but that goal is far gone now. United we are sure stronger. But us staying together would mean the equality of the people living together, wich theres not right now. I want to make sure that us working together wont lead to the assimilation of our brothers and sisters that tried it for the last 250 years.

When I said your buddies, I didnt associated you with the police or with Trudeau. The people that came here werent police but anglo-saxons RCMP'S officers on horses, army regiment from Ontario, Manitoba and P-E-I. I associated you with the ROC who never said anything about what was happening. Nobody protested exept here, nobody showed support for innocent bystanders that were beaten for the only reason of existing.

Sure the wolves would be at our door, but they are already here. Quebec is always second from Ontario on ecconomical issues, why is that. Why did the PIB increased in Quebec by 5.6%, wich is higher than the national grow average.

Sure it would be great to ``Fly the plane straight again``. What I'm afraid of is who is going to pilot and where will they fly it. How can I be sure that for the ``safety and confort of all passengers`` A few other passengers wont be trown off the plane. How can I be sure that it wont be the people in the front who will have the better food and us, people in the back, will only get cold left-overs. How can I be sure that history wont repeat itself and the plane wont be bought by a rich capitalist who will just annex it to his own planes corporation ?

If they really wanted for us to work together, why did they fucked all the provincial-federal conventions.


``States that were created in slavery and servitude find incapacity and even impossibility to help themselves or others, in order to live free and in peace``
Nicholas Machiaveli

[smithbrian86]

Another incident of unrest in the east:

FISH WORKERS BURN CANADIAN FLAG IN NFLD. PROTEST
WebPosted Mon Apr 28 19:08:34 2003

ST. JOHN'S--Angry fish workers burned a Canadian flag on Monday as
rallies were held at federal Fisheries Department offices in at least
two centres in Newfoundland and Labrador.

INDEPTH: The codless sea

The protest, organized by the Fish, Food and Allied Workers, brought
about 75 people to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans offices at
Clarenville, where they took down the Canadian flag and burned it.

They sent the Newfoundland and Labrador flag up the mast to replace it.

RELATED • Coverage from CBC ST. JOHN'S

The protesters say they're reclaiming the fishery from Ottawa.

Fisheries Minister Robert Thibault announced last Thursday that the
already much diminished cod fishery in Newfoundland and Labrador, the
Maritime provinces and Quebec would be shut down.

Roger Grimes

Newfoundland and Labrador Premier Roger Grimes is meeting with federal
politicians in Ottawa on Monday. He says federal officials don't
understand how the closure will affect the region.

FROM APRIL 24, 2003: Ottawa closes East Coast cod fishery

"We're asking them to take one more look, because we think they've made
a grievous mistake," Grimes told CBC Newsworld on Monday.

The protesters say they aren't interested in Ottawa revisiting its
decision. "It's time for us to control the fishery and the resources
around this province," one said.

DFO staff weren't at the offices when the demonstration began.

At the DFO offices in Corner Brook, protesters said they were hoping to
close federal offices throughout the region.

Kevin Hardy, a fisherman and the mayor of Burnt Islands, says the
department has shut the fishery, so the workers plan to shut the office.


Copyright © 2002 CBC All Rights Reserved

Its obvious, this unhappy marriage needs to end. A Maritime Republic!

[smithbrian86]

Things have been developing in this fishery incident quite a bit. Here are some articles from the CBC for those that are interested.

FISHERY PROTEST RESULTS IN ARSON, VANDALISM
WebPosted Sun May 4 09:31:02 2003

SHIPPAGAN, N.B.--Smoke was still rising Sunday morning and firefighters
were still mopping up after a protest in the small Maritime town of
Shippagan, N.B. over crab fishery cuts turned very bad.



"We believe alcohol was involved," said RCMP Sgt. Gary Cameron, adding,
"We hope everybody who's gonna be demonstrating in a pacifist mode
wouldn't be drinking because that doesn't help matters at all."

It began when four fishing boats were set ablaze at a dock near the town
of Shippagan, in northeastern New Brunswick. Two fish plants and a
Department of Fisheries and Ocean office were also damaged.

The federal government had assigned the vessels to members of native
bands who planned to catch East Coast crab.

By late Saturday night, angry demonstrators numbering about 250 had
filled the streets. Two fishing plants were set on fire, as well as a
federal Department of Fisheries office, police told CBC News.

The RCMP rushed in reinforcements, including a tactical team, a police
dog unit and a helicopter. There were eventually about 50 police
officers at the scene.

There were no reports of injuries or arrests.



Ottawa recently reduced the amount of crab that can be caught in the
region, while increasing the number of people licensed to fish.

Local fishermen say they're worried that the intense competition for
remaining stock, as well as bitterness caused by disputes over native
fishing rights, will lead to more violence.

Police continued to patrol the coastline around Shippagan early Sunday
and will remain there until things appear to have calmed down.

A news conference will be held by the RCMP at noon EDT to give further
details on the night's events.


Copyright © 2002 CBC All Rights Reserved

And if you are still interested, here is yet another another article.

POLICE APPEAL FOR CALM IN WAKE OF FISHERY RIOT
WebPosted Sun May 4 15:46:57 2003

SHIPPAGAN, N.B.--The RCMP in a small New Brunswick town rocked by a riot
over a fisheries dispute are calling for peace and for witnesses to step
forward.

There are fears the violence could return Sunday night.



Sgt. Gary Cameron said the rioting in Shippagan, which saw boats and
buildings burned and damaged, was the worst they've ever seen in the
community.

"We knew people were going to be mad," Cameron said in a telephone
interview Sunday. He was referring to local reaction to a federal
decision Friday to cut the crab fishery quota by 20 per cent and a
concurrent order that 15 per cent of that be shared with lobster
fishermen.

"But there's big a difference between being mad and what happened last
(Saturday) night."

Cameron noted that alcohol likely played a role in the crowd's
behaviour.

Four boats were destroyed in Saturday night's mayhem. The federal
government had assigned the vessels to members of native bands who
planned to catch East Coast crab.

One of three fish plants in the town was burned to the ground, as was a
nearby warehouse. The crowd, estimated at 250, also tried to burn down
the federal Department of Fisheries office.



Total damage is estimated to be in the millions of dollars. No one was
injured.

The Mounties said they didn't anticipate the violence. There were only
10 police officers present when things turned ugly. No arrests were
made, and Cameron said police didn't intervene more actively out of a
concern for public safety.

By the time police reinforcements arrived – including a tactical
team, a dog team and a helicopter, bringing the total number of officers
to 50 – most of the crowd had dispersed.

Cameron said they have sufficient forces in place if things flare up
again.

The crab fishery is one of the most lucrative in the Maritimes.
Fishermen can make about $1 million in a two-month season.

One reason Fisheries Minister Robert Thibault allocated some of the crab
quota to lobster fishermen was to take pressure off the lobster fishery.
He had been doing that on an interim basis since 1999, but Friday's
decision made that permanent.


Copyright © 2002 CBC All Rights Reserved

Ok thats alot of information, does anyone want to start a large debate of seperatism in Canada?

Brian Smith

[smithbrian86]

Sorry about that, been absent a bit. Let the Debate begin! Choose your side or jump in in the middle

I suppose it is obvious who I support, but if not then I support an independent union of provinces on the east coast.

Nova Scotia
New Brunswick
Newfoundland & Labrador
P.E.I

I would not expect to share a common currency, postal system or receive any "parting allowance" as the Quebecois Seperatists have expressed interest in obtaining in the event of their seperation. Before I go into a long explanation of why I think seperation is a good idea for the people of the east, I should pose the question, who doesn't think it is a good or plausible idea.

Brian Smith

[Deicidus]

Yes, before a debate begins, everybody should just post a single sentence of what side they're taking.

That way we'll all know where everybody stands and we will start the debate when everybody stated their either they support it or they're against it.

I'm all for it.

[Tigerlily]

Ahhhh! I'm all if-y. I kinda want both sides.

For the sake of this debate, I'm for it.

[smithbrian86]

Excellent,

We will need some people who are against it though!

Brian Smith

[LeviticusWheat]

I don't think too many Canadians west of Toronto (I don't live in Canada, but visit Sask and Manitoba frequently) give a rip about the Maritimes or Quebec. If they had their druthers, they would just as soon see Labrador, NS and Newfoundland join Quebec in some separatist, Socialist movement based upon perpetual victimization.

[Adrien]

Sorry to intervene in your debate..

All i wanted to say is that this is all very interesting, and that it will keep me hanging around in the North-America forum which i usually don't visit a lot!

I mean people never talk about the situation in Canada, even if some of them are our cousins , so it's interesting to learn that things are going that far! But even if my advice don't count, i'd tend on Kolzene's side, his posts were wise, and with the actual situation i think he is right.

But hey like i said i'm not Canadian, so it's not my direct business!

[Adrien]

That's the problem with multicultural societies, because multiculture can be at the same time weakening and making the country stronger and paradoxically more united against problems.

These heritage days are a good idea, or so it seems!

As for the separation issue, it looks like it's dead for the moment. It seemed to be going good until someone suggested we start all over again. I can see where that might deflate some people's motivation.

Yes apparently!

That's too bad, because i wanted to know more, like if the actual constitutional organization was blocking the resolution of the problems (i'm talking about economical problems, problems of culture and desires of independance are different), by being too heavy, too old, ...

If a change is really really needed maybe the constitution could give more local power to the provinces, but reinforcing the federal power on certain things the provinces should do in common (foreign affairs, armed forces, healthcare system, ...) maybe like in Spain, you see?

[void]

Technocracy = government by pollution. Not wise.