[late]

The reason there is trouble at the border is because we made it.

They aren't the problem, we are.

You see, we have been exploiting them for close to 2 centuries. The Drug War has turned some countries into shells that don't collapse because we prop them up. We also have a long standing tradition of supporting dictators. If you were around, back in the day, you heard a steady stream of how awful Castro was. But all Castro had to do was point at a country like Honduras and ask his people if they wanted to live like that. Funny, they always said no...

Climate change is becoming one of the things forcing people to flee.

Ya see, this ain't complicated. The first step is to stop being lying a**holes. After that, we treat them like people, and this will turn around.

[Puffer Fish]

You see, we have been exploiting them for close to 2 centuries. The Drug War has turned some countries into shells that don't collapse because we prop them up. We also have a long standing tradition of supporting dictators.

Mexico has a socialist President now.

How long will you be able to continue to blame the past for a country's problems?

[Puffer Fish]

The Drug War has turned some countries into shells that don't collapse because we prop them up.

Mexico, Guatemala, and Colombia have a combined population of 195.5 million, a little over 58% of the population of the U.S.
(And indeed, the Drug War problems in Latin America extends beyond just these three countries)

How can you lay all the blame for the Drug War in these countries on the U.S.?

[Puffer Fish]

Climate change is becoming one of the things forcing people to flee.

Oh please. There's very little evidence that is happening in Latin America, or most of the countries where the migrants entering the U.S. are coming from.

[Puffer Fish]

After that, we treat them like people, and this will turn around.

The U.S. is unable to even treat all of its own population it already has as "people".

What does "treating people like people" actually mean?

Do you have any idea what would happen if a First World country opened up its borders to the entire Third World?
Have you thought about that?

I remember reading one survey that suggested ONE OUT OF THREE people in Africa would like to move to the U.S. if they could.
(That would more than double the population of the U.S., in case you can't do the math)


When poverty rates spike and there isn't enough affordable housing for all these people, I suppose you'll just blame "Capitalism", won't you?

[ingliz]

There is no border crisis

Correct.

You are making a mountain out of a molehill.

The population density in the United States is just 37 per km². For comparison, the population density in Malta is 1,677.

and

Only 5% of the US is considered developed land.

Note: 47% is bereft of any human habitation.

[late]

What does "treating people like people" actually mean?

After I took out the trash, that was what was left.

It means we treat them the same way we treat the White people in Europe.

[Rich]

Lebensraum matters!
Primary resource control matters

They are not the only things that matter. Our ability to produce from a given pieces of land our efficiency of primary resource use have increased dramatically, but these things still matter. There is not a fixed lump of labour, but there is a fixed lump of land. Greater population density all else being equal makes the indigenous population poorer on average and makes society more unequal delivering a double whammy to the middle and poorer classes.

[late]

Lebensraum matters!


Greater population density all else being equal makes the indigenous population poorer on average and makes society more unequal delivering a double whammy to the middle and poorer classes.

Lebensraum is Nazi talk, are you trying to tell us something?

That literally doesn't make sense. Did you mean rural population when you said indigenous?

The inequality is more from the growing wealth in urban areas. That the growth in income is where the economy is hot is not exactly news..

The "double whammy" is largely from the income inequality. But, in America, that is largely from the super rich taking ever larger slices of the economy. The rich didn't use to walk away with half the income, and they used to pay more taxes.

They used to call them Robber Barons, they threaten the economy and democracy.

See Price of Inequality by Stiglitz...

[Pants-of-dog]

Oh please. There's very little evidence that [migration from climate change] is happening in Latin America, or most of the countries where the migrants entering the U.S. are coming from.

https://www.imf.org/en/News/Articles/20 ... -caribbean

Approximately 0.5% of the entire population of Mexico, Central America and the Caribbean have migrated due to climate change.

Mexico has a socialist President now.

Left leaning progressive capitalists are not socialists.

How can you lay all the blame for the Drug War in these countries on the U.S.?

The whole point of having a drug cartel is to sell drugs to people in the USA.

If people in the USA did not want hard drugs (or legalized them) the cartels and their violence would not exist.

What does "treating people like people" actually mean?

In this context, respecting asylum laws, mitigation of anthropogenic climate change, legalization of hard drugs, and other measures to ameliorate the negative impacts of US involvement in the region.

[Puffer Fish]

late, it seems your argument is not so much that there is not a crisis, but rather you don't consider it to be a crisis, since you think all those people should be let in.

[Puffer Fish]

The population density in the United States is just 37 per km². For comparison, the population density in Malta is 1,677.

That is very misleading, because the vast majority of the U.S. population is concentrated into high-population areas. (This can very easily be seen looking at a map)

Virtually none of these immigrants want to move to the very low population areas. They are all moving to the more populated areas that are already overcrowded.

In addition, even if they were moving to lower population areas, a lot of those areas in the U.S. are economically depressed, there are not very good job opportunities there. It would probably only further exacerbate the economic suffering of the people living in those areas.

Much of the large swaths of empty land area in the U.S. are either too cold, are hot dry desert, or have very limited access to nearby water.

To draw an analogy, it would be like claiming Europe has a low population density, because you are including Russia and Northern Scandinavia in that calculation.

One of the big things causing the "housing crisis" in the U.S. is that there is limited open space to build new homes, in the areas where the housing crisis is most acute. And those areas are where the majority of Americans live.

[Puffer Fish]

After I took out the trash, that was what was left.

It means we treat them the same way we treat the White people in Europe.

You are incredibly ignorant and naive if you do not realize what letting the entire rest of the world into Europe and America would result in.

Did it not ever occur to you that things in Europe and America would start being a lot more like those other corrupt conflict-prone and poverty-stricken countries where all those people are coming from?

Did you stop and ask yourself what that would do to wage levels and working conditions, having all those desperate poverty-stricken people?
Perhaps you ignorantly think the government could somehow "solve" that, but it seems evident the government has been unable to solve those problems now. It would only get far tougher to solve.

You're not thinking about hospitals, or how emergency care services might get completely overwhelmed.

Or how so many areas in the U.S. and Europe are already overcrowded, with homelessness because there is not enough housing. That would only get MUCH worse.

If more people automatically create more wealth, like you seem to assume, then tell us why so many other countries in the world are so poor. Such as India.

Even from China, there are many migrants trying to illegally sneak into the U.S. now.

[Pants-of-dog]

@Puffer Fish

You are an immigrant to the USA, are you not?

[late]

You are incredibly ignorant and naive

You are talking about yourself, kid.

That you don't understand what I said is not exactly unexpected.

[Puffer Fish]

related threads:
Border patrol overwhelmed, migrants are being released into the U.S. (16 Sep 2023)
Democrats prepare to cast illegal immigrants out into the cold (10 Nov 2023)

And you say there is no crisis?

[Puffer Fish]

@late , if you want to get a taste of what economic circumstances are like for many people living in more rural parts of America, see this thread:

Woman left homeless after her motorhome stolen (posted in Minor & Human Interest Stories, 9 Feb 2024)

Do you think adding more migrants to these areas would help the situation?

And I can tell you, the location in that link is definitely not anywhere near the worst places in the U.S.

[late]

related threads:
Border patrol overwhelmed, migrants are being released into the U.S. (16 Sep 2023)
Democrats prepare to cast illegal immigrants out into the cold (10 Nov 2023)

And you say there is no crisis?

No, I am saying people are being driven out of their country largely by crises we caused.

[late]

@late , if you want to get a taste of what economic circumstances are like for many people living in more rural parts of America, see this thread:

Woman left homeless after her motorhome stolen (posted in Minor & Human Interest Stories, 9 Feb 2024)

Do you think adding more migrants to these areas would help the situation?

And I can tell you, the location in that link is definitely not anywhere near the worst places in the U.S.

Biden put forth a plan at the beginning of his presidency.

He recently hammered out another plan with Republicans, that gave Republicans most of what they wanted. But Trump said no, and the plan died.

I was arguing for immigration reform before Trump, this is a long standing issue. Btw, it was usually Republicans that resisted efforts at reform.

I also know much, much more about economics than you, and that includes rural America.

Rural America is in upheaval. The average age of farmers is in their 60s. The kids usually leave. There is a variety of reasons, but the income of an average farmer is low when compared with the amount of hours worked. There are also few jobs and even fewer careers in rural areas. If that wasn't bad enough, health care facilities, like hospitals, have been closing for a generation. It's not unusual that it takes over an hour to get health care in an emergency.

It's a national problem, and we will eventually be forced to deal with it. But it's not a crisis yet, so it gets ignored.

But not by me.

[Puffer Fish]

Biden ... He recently hammered out another plan with Republicans, that gave Republicans most of what they wanted. But Trump said no, and the plan died.

That's a vast oversimplification. Biden's proposed bill contained a "poison pill", which is the reason so many Republicans are opposed to it.
It would have permanently moved jurisdiction of any border disputes between the state of Texas and the U.S. to D.C., the nation's capital.
Republicans are very skeptical why this provision would be in there if Democrats plan to actually do an adequate job enforcing border security, which would cause the legal disputes to end.

If you want to discuss this subject more, you will need to start a new thread.