[Tainari88]

Dr. Cornel West for the Green Party. I am going to vote for him if it is possible on the Colorado ballot.

I think the most important aspect about this coming election is to start class solidarity.

If it does not work, at least there was a strong attempt to.

I agree with West on a lot of issues.

You should vote for the candidate you most agree with. Fully. Study all issues in contention and go for the vote that reflects your views.

[Verv]

If RFK was the Democrat candidate, I would vote for him over Trump any day.

I support Ramaswamy currently for the Republican nomination. I would enthusiastically vote for him or Gabbard over Trump, but I would probably vote for Trump over DeSantis.

If Biden is the candidate, I would vote for any Republican running against him.

[Tainari88]

If RFK was the Democrat candidate, I would vote for him over Trump any day.

I support Ramaswamy currently for the Republican nomination. I would enthusiastically vote for him or Gabbard over Trump, but I would probably vote for Trump over DeSantis.

If Biden is the candidate, I would vote for any Republican running against him.

I still do not understand anyone voting for Trump at all at this point. Unless you are just cynical and want a civil war down the line.

And why is DeSantis such a problem for some Republican voters?

Gabbard is much better than DeSantis if you are a Republican leaning voter. But Trump is apparently ahead in polls.

[Verv]

I still do not understand anyone voting for Trump at all at this point. Unless you are just cynical and want a civil war down the line.

And why is DeSantis such a problem for some Republican voters?

Gabbard is much better than DeSantis if you are a Republican leaning voter. But Trump is apparently ahead in polls.

I want the war in the Ukraine to end, and I want Trump to be locked in conflict with the FBI, the military industrial complex, all the elements of the deep state, and for him to win... Which is unlikely, but by actively fighting it, and exposing it to some degree, he can chip away at it, or give the tools and inspiration to the people who might be able to dismantle it.

I believe in a right & left alliance against the center.

The GOP has always been something of an outsider party. It's a blunt knife that exists to lose culture wars and repeal taxes on corporations. It is now getting hijacked by populists who do want some real change...

In all fairness, under Obama, there were some real pushes for dynamic left wing reforms. There is some authenticity in the Democrats as well... But it is truly a well oiled machine that gives the anti-establishment candidates less ability to do anything.

Even AOC ultimately has become supportive of Israel - lol.

[Tainari88]

I want the war in the Ukraine to end, and I want Trump to be locked in conflict with the FBI, the military industrial complex, all the elements of the deep state, and for him to win... Which is unlikely, but by actively fighting it, and exposing it to some degree, he can chip away at it, or give the tools and inspiration to the people who might be able to dismantle it.

I believe in a right & left alliance against the center.

The GOP has always been something of an outsider party. It's a blunt knife that exists to lose culture wars and repeal taxes on corporations. It is now getting hijacked by populists who do want some real change...

In all fairness, under Obama, there were some real pushes for dynamic left wing reforms. There is some authenticity in the Democrats as well... But it is truly a well oiled machine that gives the anti-establishment candidates less ability to do anything.

Even AOC ultimately has become supportive of Israel - lol.

Trump is not going to dismantle a damn thing. The man is a conman with an agenda that is about himself only. He is devoid of any real principles. Nixon had more general principles than Trump and he was pressured into resigning midway through his presidency that is small potatoes compared to what Trump has committed within his office.

I happen to think that the right wing is incredibly naive thinking it is going to dismantle the establishment....you need to give up on capitalism and corporate greed for that to happen. And unfortunately all of you are for profit and are brainwashed with capitalism. Unless that changes you won't dismantle anything. You got to make humans more important than money and property. You never do. Love money too much on the Right.

[JohnRawls]

People voting for a person who took a dump on the constitution is beyond me.

[Verv]

Trump is not going to dismantle a damn thing. The man is a conman with an agenda that is about himself only. He is devoid of any real principles. Nixon had more general principles than Trump and he was pressured into resigning midway through his presidency that is small potatoes compared to what Trump has committed within his office.

That's like, just your opinion...

Even if he is conman, whose agenda is himself, who have made him mortal enemies..? The deep state, as well as oligarch dinosaur media in the West.

What is great about that is now we would have a narcissist backed by populist power fighting his heart out against entrenched power.

It doesn't matter if the stick is crooked - God can draw a straight line with a crooked stick.

Which is why supporting weirdos like Javier Milei is also not a bad idea.

I happen to think that the right wing is incredibly naive thinking it is going to dismantle the establishment....you need to give up on capitalism and corporate greed for that to happen. And unfortunately all of you are for profit and are brainwashed with capitalism. Unless that changes you won't dismantle anything. You got to make humans more important than money and property. You never do. Love money too much on the Right.

What you are basically saying, then, is that the country is so undemocratic that it is unrealsitic to expect elections to be able to route out deeply entrenched, unelected government operatives and agents.

We can all think about that for a minute and then appreciate how screwed up that is, right?

Which is why it would be great to expose that as a reality... At which point it would be an impetus for a greater left/right unity to try to completely dismantle the oligarch government.

... Your last lines about how conservatives do not love humans but instead love power is interesting. IDK. If you believe that is the case, then that is fine, I do not think it is. I know people on the right wing. It's absolutely untrue.

The only times that this ends up being true is when you have establishment conservatives like the Mitch McConnell's of the world in the driver's seat.

[Tainari88]

That's like, just your opinion...

Even if he is conman, whose agenda is himself, who have made him mortal enemies..? The deep state, as well as oligarch dinosaur media in the West.

What is great about that is now we would have a narcissist backed by populist power fighting his heart out against entrenched power.

It doesn't matter if the stick is crooked - God can draw a straight line with a crooked stick.

Which is why supporting weirdos like Javier Milei is also not a bad idea.



What you are basically saying, then, is that the country is so undemocratic that it is unrealsitic to expect elections to be able to route out deeply entrenched, unelected government operatives and agents.

We can all think about that for a minute and then appreciate how screwed up that is, right?

Which is why it would be great to expose that as a reality... At which point it would be an impetus for a greater left/right unity to try to completely dismantle the oligarch government.
... Your last lines about how conservatives do not love humans but instead love power is interesting. IDK. If you believe that is the case, then that is fine, I do not think it is. I know people on the right wing. It's absolutely untrue.

The only times that this ends up being true is when you have establishment conservatives like the Mitch McConnell's of the world in the driver's seat.

Most of the lower classes that are conservative and working class keep voting against their own class interests. Why? They are way too individualistic in mentality, and they fail to have class solidarity that is in keeping with their life experiences. Why they fail to do that is interesting. Mostly they are not thinking internationally at all and they think somehow their world can be righted by some limited campaigns. You need to be deeply organized and to create active movements with a very wide and diverse group. If diversity makes you uncomfortable you will not be successful. If you wait around for a long time waiting for the perfect unity and agreement on all issues to kick in first before pressuring the powers that be? It will never happen.

If you are intelligent you find common ground with a lot of people. Cornel West discussed that in the video I posted above. He knows what motivated people with Trump. But they continue to look for the wrong remedy.

A crooked stick is like a crooked person if they have crooked values they will never be giving good fruit. Expecting God to use a bunch of vile people to get justice is crazy.

Get someone with ethics, principles, and a real value system that is consistent and ethical. If you study profoundly great social movements in human history, the people who got the best results tended to be the people with the best characters and the best ethics. Not perfect people. But good people with excellent leadership qualities.

If you think you will get some great results from conmen, liars, self-centered narcissistic power drunk crooks? You have absolutely no sense of what is victorious over rot. That is certain.

I find the thought that some devil behaving liar is going to be the redemptive person for what is wrong extremely laughable. What was the purpose of Satan confronting Jesus Christ in the desert if he could get humanity to be saved through one of his demons eh? He offered Jesus armies, mundane power, riches because all those things are controlled by Satanic forces. Not the forces of God.

You got to renounce all that in order to become a threat to his control. Trump is not the renunciate. Not in this lifetime. How hard is that to understand?

[Verv]

Most of the lower classes that are conservative and working class keep voting against their own class interests. Why? They are way too individualistic in mentality, and they fail to have class solidarity that is in keeping with their life experiences. Why they fail to do that is interesting. Mostly they are not thinking internationally at all and they think somehow their world can be righted by some limited campaigns. You need to be deeply organized and to create active movements with a very wide and diverse group. If diversity makes you uncomfortable you will not be successful. If you wait around for a long time waiting for the perfect unity and agreement on all issues to kick in first before pressuring the powers that be? It will never happen.

If you are intelligent you find common ground with a lot of people. Cornel West discussed that in the video I posted above. He knows what motivated people with Trump. But they continue to look for the wrong remedy.

A crooked stick is like a crooked person if they have crooked values they will never be giving good fruit. Expecting God to use a bunch of vile people to get justice is crazy.

Get someone with ethics, principles, and a real value system that is consistent and ethical. If you study profoundly great social movements in human history, the people who got the best results tended to be the people with the best characters and the best ethics. Not perfect people. But good people with excellent leadership qualities.

If you think you will get some great results from conmen, liars, self-centered narcissistic power drunk crooks? You have absolutely no sense of what is victorious over rot. That is certain.

I find the thought that some devil behaving liar is going to be the redemptive person for what is wrong extremely laughable. What was the purpose of Satan confronting Jesus Christ in the desert if he could get humanity to be saved through one of his demons eh? He offered Jesus armies, mundane power, riches because all those things are controlled by Satanic forces. Not the forces of God.

You got to renounce all that in order to become a threat to his control. Trump is not the renunciate. Not in this lifetime. How hard is that to understand?

(1) The working class and rural Trump voters are actually voting for the class interests when they vote for Trump in the sense that Trump is, unlike other Republicans, something of an economic nationalist. Fiscally, he's a 90s democrat. Indeed, he would be a progressive 90s democrat in the sense that he is pro-gay marriage, and a conservative one in the sense that he is pro-life.

The working class people in the first world countries have always had anti-immigration movements starting from within them because of issues like wage dilution.

(2) West is not a viable alternative to Biden or whoever the Republican nominee will be, so you can mount your high horse and tell us about how bad trees do not produce good fruit while 97% of voters are choosing the lesser of two evils.

Part of me does want to throw my vote at some third party candidate myself but it is really just virtue signaling.

(3) Donald Trump has his obvious vices - he is egotistical and he has cheated on his wife and breezed through the women. He has also bragged about buying politicians, and that's wonderful. It's another piece of the puzzle that conservative Americans get to see.

To what extent is he a bad tree?

To what extent was Charlemagne a bad tree?

To what extent was King David a bad tree?

King David sent a man to his death while having an affair with his wife... Which is pretty wild, nonetheless he is a revered figure in Christianity, he is "a man after God's own heart" (a statement reiterated in the New Testament as well).

I am a Trump fanboy. I do not think he is infallible. But if he not only overturned Roe v. Wade via his SCOTUS picks but also managed to get reelected and drain the proverbial swamp, that'd be something.

[Tainari88]

(1) The working class and rural Trump voters are actually voting for the class interests when they vote for Trump in the sense that Trump is, unlike other Republicans, something of an economic nationalist. Fiscally, he's a 90s democrat. Indeed, he would be a progressive 90s democrat in the sense that he is pro-gay marriage, and a conservative one in the sense that he is pro-life.

The working class people in the first world countries have always had anti-immigration movements starting from within them because of issues like wage dilution.

(2) West is not a viable alternative to Biden or whoever the Republican nominee will be, so you can mount your high horse and tell us about how bad trees do not produce good fruit while 97% of voters are choosing the lesser of two evils.

Part of me does want to throw my vote at some third party candidate myself but it is really just virtue signaling.

(3) Donald Trump has his obvious vices - he is egotistical and he has cheated on his wife and breezed through the women. He has also bragged about buying politicians, and that's wonderful. It's another piece of the puzzle that conservative Americans get to see.

To what extent is he a bad tree?

To what extent was Charlemagne a bad tree?

To what extent was King David a bad tree?

King David sent a man to his death while having an affair with his wife... Which is pretty wild, nonetheless he is a revered figure in Christianity, he is "a man after God's own heart" (a statement reiterated in the New Testament as well).

I am a Trump fanboy. I do not think he is infallible. But if he not only overturned Roe v. Wade via his SCOTUS picks but also managed to get reelected and drain the proverbial swamp, that'd be something.

I do not back people who have demonstrated a serious lack of ethics, good values and who are full of the worst bad habits in the world. Trump sucks in every possible moral sense, and ethical sense. I am not surprised he chose the Republican party to do his bid for power in. I dislike both parties Verv. They are useless for change for the working man or woman in the USA.

For me if you are against abortion then you better put your money where your mouth is and deal with universal child care, and helping out single parents and single mothers, and dealing with the fallout of people who have children and have weak support systems. Adoption and getting resources behind the reasons why women abort their babies. Pro life means backing life. As in money, time and dedication to children and women and family policies that gives parents time with their kids. Not talking shit about supporting families and not coming through with MONEY and time for that.

I do not care about conservative blowhards talking about crap. They are mostly greedy devils with low life values hiding behind lies of being excellent Christians but would never give away their money or their power to follow anything remotely necessary to get the society to change from liberal hypocrisy or pro capitalist economic dominance for communal dedication to worker owned and protected endeavors. A bunch of lying pieces of shit they are. Hypocritical, racist, nasty, and false.

That you think that is what Jesus demonstrated as real Christian is crazy to me. Who were the Jews from thousands of years ago? All you have to do to figure out how they might have lived besides studying the gospels and so on? Is to study tribal people who are nomads and who come from the lowest rungs of society in terms of power and wealth.

There is a lot you can glean from archaeological evidence and from studying present day societies that mimic what is very accurate about how people live. They have to live communally, there is a lot of work that is shared, and there are a lot of social obligations. None that are similar to capitalistic consumerism and American style values of wealth building and God loves you through wealth. Poverty and vows of poverty have to do again with RENOUNCING worldly things.

What are they? Mundane power, war, lust, greed, gluttony etc all the seven deadly sins and so on.

You think the Right put human needs FIRST like socialists are supposed to do? No, they do not. So far I have not seen a far Right movement who gives up money, power and time and dedicates themselves to educating the poor, healing the sick and not judging their fellow human beings and building up the society not based on mundane power and wealth but through what are the great human virtues mentioned in the Bible Verv.

There are enormous contradictions lived by the Right wing Religious Right in the USA. I find most of them fake Christians. As fakes they will fail to convince anyone. How long have those people spouted a bunch of crap about creating a better society? It wasn't them marching en masse in the sixties to get the Civil Rights Movement to happen.

They were not singing We Shall Overcome someday....

Where are the Right wing conservative element in eradicating imperialism? Which is about invading militarily other lands that do not belong to them in order to gain control of them for the purpose of self enrichment and exploiting that land and the people on it?

Where are they for expanding rights to everyone so they can have free public educations, or clean water, or so on? Not burden people with student loans for decades?

You go one by one dealing with equality issues and they are ABSENT. Why?

Do they believe in equality? Or do they believe in hiarchy and class systems that are old and rusted out?

They got a problem with change and with transformation. For me that means they are going against NATURE. The natural system we live under. If they do not understand change and they do not want transformation for a better and more inclusive society full of people who are both balanced with material needs but without excess and accept people as humans and put human value above money and above power. Nothing goes above that. God is about saving souls according to Christian thought. How can you save souls if all you really put your time, energy, and power behind is war budgets and denying people needed help and financial security if they work full time for society and for their families?

Fake Christians are lying to themselves and to the rest of the world. That is why they can't get to first base on the issues that truly matter. They lack the will, the understanding, and the depth.

Hoping that their version of God is the one that prevails. God has nothing to do with the Kingdom ruled by Satan. Satan is who the Right loves. They demonstrate it by their actions. That is certain.

They keep believing Jesus had some Gucci sandals and was a business owner on that cross. Lol. El Cristo has always been about the humble, the poor, the ones marginalized, and the ones struggling. Yet, for the American Christian Right, the only thing they worship is Mammon, materialism, and nationalistic jingoistic fake Gods. In Latin America, the Left is always associated with the Poor. It is only in North America that they got this weird notion that Christ loves prosperity. Where is prosperity more important than humble prayer, and working for the love of community? There is a religious philosophical disconnect there. It could be Calvinism and the origins of Protestant ethics and Capitalism. A horrible alliance.

Let them keep thinking Satan is a Liberal. They will find out he is a Right Wing Conservative.

[Verv]

I do not back people who have demonstrated a serious lack of ethics, good values and who are full of the worst bad habits in the world. Trump sucks in every possible moral sense, and ethical sense. I am not surprised he chose the Republican party to do his bid for power in. I dislike both parties Verv. They are useless for change for the working man or woman in the USA.

OK.

I believe in the reality of choosing the lesser of two evils.

For me if you are against abortion then you better put your money where your mouth is and deal with universal child care, and helping out single parents and single mothers, and dealing with the fallout of people who have children and have weak support systems. Adoption and getting resources behind the reasons why women abort their babies. Pro life means backing life. As in money, time and dedication to children and women and family policies that gives parents time with their kids. Not talking shit about supporting families and not coming through with MONEY and time for that.

Right, I support actively tweaking the economy to maximize benefits for mothers - pay women a fair wage to be stay at home mothers, but also hold them accountable for mothering at this point. Which would mean that parents, given the opportunity to have benefits and salaries paid to them monthly for their labor, would also face punishment and sanction for their children's criminality or misdeeds.

Basically, anything we can do to get people to take parenting seriously should be done in addition to giving them the material wealth that they need to get it done.

It also goes without saying that the global economy would change rapidly if we began to end our gluttonous military spending - it would enable a lot more places to nationalize their economies and experience economic reforms, and this could rebalance all economies back towards a sort of protectionism with equitable exchanges between the developed and developing world.

I do not care about conservative blowhards talking about crap. They are mostly greedy devils with low life values hiding behind lies of being excellent Christians but would never give away their money or their power to follow anything remotely necessary to get the society to change from liberal hypocrisy or pro capitalist economic dominance for communal dedication to worker owned and protected endeavors. A bunch of lying pieces of shit they are. Hypocritical, racist, nasty, and false.

That you think that is what Jesus demonstrated as real Christian is crazy to me. Who were the Jews from thousands of years ago? All you have to do to figure out how they might have lived besides studying the gospels and so on? Is to study tribal people who are nomads and who come from the lowest rungs of society in terms of power and wealth.

There is a lot you can glean from archaeological evidence and from studying present day societies that mimic what is very accurate about how people live. They have to live communally, there is a lot of work that is shared, and there are a lot of social obligations. None that are similar to capitalistic consumerism and American style values of wealth building and God loves you through wealth. Poverty and vows of poverty have to do again with RENOUNCING worldly things.

The modern economy gave us conveniences that have led to our atomization. Because we live separate from one another, and because our economic earnings are so individualized, our educations so specialized, our labor so skilled (hopefully!), we no longer think in terms of the collective.

I think we need a happy medium between the two: the West has given us the beauty of the individual and his personal relationship to God and society as a great point of emphasis, but we must also use the technology we have developed to go toward a more Eastern model of harmonious and communal living...

What are they? Mundane power, war, lust, greed, gluttony etc all the seven deadly sins and so on.

You think the Right put human needs FIRST like socialists are supposed to do? No, they do not. So far I have not seen a far Right movement who gives up money, power and time and dedicates themselves to educating the poor, healing the sick and not judging their fellow human beings and building up the society not based on mundane power and wealth but through what are the great human virtues mentioned in the Bible Verv.

Well, the far right Fascist movements were collectivist. Some more than others. It was a lot about class enmity. The works of some of these guys read very much along class terms - particularly Codreanu corners the Jews as a group of urban intellectuals and professionals who, even though they are an extreme minority, end up occupying huge percentages of key positions in government, education, press, etc.

Just as how class & race have correlations in America, they did in Europe...

I am reading Bevins' Jakarta method now and he talks also about how nationalism and Communism could often be positively interacting in places like Indonesia.

Ummmmm, it's very complicated, and I assure you, the right wing is full of great values.

I've said nothing negative of the left wing... But maybe I will at some point, lol, you are encouraging me towards that end.

There are enormous contradictions lived by the Right wing Religious Right in the USA. I find most of them fake Christians. As fakes they will fail to convince anyone. How long have those people spouted a bunch of crap about creating a better society? It wasn't them marching en masse in the sixties to get the Civil Rights Movement to happen.

They haven't really, though: they think that paradise is unobtainable, you could say.

At the real bottom of the barrel of the conservative & Libertarian approach is an anti-utopian sentiment that no political system will be satisfactory enough to eliminate injustice, let alone some even larger and ever-shifting concept of poverty.

They were not singing We Shall Overcome someday....

Where are the Right wing conservative element in eradicating imperialism? Which is about invading militarily other lands that do not belong to them in order to gain control of them for the purpose of self enrichment and exploiting that land and the people on it?

There's a lot of libertarians who have thought along the lines of that.

The American Empire stretching across the globe is failed post-WWII idealism...

Bretton-Woods led to an international economic order in the West where we had to guarantee the free trade and independence of a wide variety of states not in the Communist sphere. We then began competing with the Communists for influence throughout the third world to secure that with the CIA... Which was a grievous mistake, but to some extent the world had been divided into different spheres of influence we thought that we had the right to exercise control over...

Americans, both left & right, bought into this fully.

The libertarian Americans and other far right Americans occasionally rejected this practice outright, and, of course, there were American leftists who also did.

Ultimately, though, a lot of this shit was stuff nobody ever voted for...

The CIA orchestrated coups in places like Guatemala and Iran with zero political accountability or representation from the American people.

Which is why the CIA should be abolished.

Where are they for expanding rights to everyone so they can have free public educations, or clean water, or so on? Not burden people with student loans for decades?

Most American conservatives are not extreme libertarians and support clean water, free public education...

They oppose student loan stuff because they are skeptical that the University education is worth that much.

You know who else is kinda like that..?

The French and the Germans, who have nationalized tertiary education, and who also greatly limit who can even obtain that.

So instead of monetary limitations to education for people... They are limited by how they placed on a test, which will invariably also show us class and racial inequalities in these places.

You go one by one dealing with equality issues and they are ABSENT. Why?

Conservatives tend to be constitutionalists and do not view the Federal government as having the right to redistribute wealth and mandate equality.

Do they believe in equality? Or do they believe in hiarchy and class systems that are old and rusted out?

yes, absolutely: they believe in total equality before the law, and they also believe that they themselvs when they fall into poverty should strive to pull themselves up by the bootstraps, taking advantage of what minimal welfare programs exist...

that has been my experience, at least.

You see this among Koreans as well.

They got a problem with change and with transformation. For me that means they are going against NATURE. The natural system we live under. If they do not understand change and they do not want transformation for a better and more inclusive society full of people who are both balanced with material needs but without excess and accept people as humans and put human value above money and above power. Nothing goes above that. God is about saving souls according to Christian thought. How can you save souls if all you really put your time, energy, and power behind is war budgets and denying people needed help and financial security if they work full time for society and for their families?

This is a heck of a lot of text - we're now talking about nature.

Fake Christians are lying to themselves and to the rest of the world. That is why they can't get to first base on the issues that truly matter. They lack the will, the understanding, and the depth.

Hoping that their version of God is the one that prevails. God has nothing to do with the Kingdom ruled by Satan. Satan is who the Right loves. They demonstrate it by their actions. That is certain.

That's rough.

They keep believing Jesus had some Gucci sandals and was a business owner on that cross. Lol. El Cristo has always been about the humble, the poor, the ones marginalized, and the ones struggling. Yet, for the American Christian Right, the only thing they worship is Mammon, materialism, and nationalistic jingoistic fake Gods. In Latin America, the Left is always associated with the Poor. It is only in North America that they got this weird notion that Christ loves prosperity. Where is prosperity more important than humble prayer, and working for the love of community? There is a religious philosophical disconnect there. It could be Calvinism and the origins of Protestant ethics and Capitalism. A horrible alliance.

Let them keep thinking Satan is a Liberal. They will find out he is a Right Wing Conservative.

Well, yes... But it's also about not being lazy or irresponsible with what you have, and it is definitely about social consrvatism.

But I know how it works with liberals:

- Do not legislate your morality in terms of behavior...
- ... but my morality says you owe the poor all your money.

I think there needs to be a balance between all these things.

We cannot force people to change their personal behaviors, and we should redistribute wealth to guarantee a baseline standard of living, especially for children.

[JohnRawls]

@Verv If you don't consider what Trump did a violation of Constitution then if Trump gets elected again and continues to damage the constitution to the point that you can't deny it anymore than will you take active action against that? I am just curious here. Since you are electing a person who might do that.

Or will you sit where you are right now thinking that you are not at fault here?

[late]

I believe in a right & left alliance against the center.

The GOP has always been something of an outsider party.

In all fairness, under Obama, there were some real pushes for dynamic left wing reforms. There is some authenticity in the Democrats as well... But it is truly a well oiled machine that gives the anti-establishment candidates less ability to do anything.

The only place they meet is in the middle. What you want is a fantasy with no basis in reality whatsoever.

The GOP started as a reformer party, but after the Civil War, that changed. There was a string of Republican presidents, Grant, Hayes, Garfield, Arthur.

Then there was McKinley, TR, Taft.

Then Harding, Coolridge, Hoover.

From 1869 to 1933, most presidents were Republican.

After WW2, the Republican East Coast Establishment went back to being one of the centers of power. Even when they lost the White House, politicians often needed them. It was a bipartisan era, despite appearances, and their support often made the difference.

Point is, you don't get more inside than being part of the East Coast Establishment...

Another point is that the Dems govern, Republicans don't.

So, sure, Dems are deeply flawed. But they sweat blood for Obamacare, for example. Republicans, they're in it for themselves. That's how you wind up with a Trump as the head of your party.

[annatar1914]

To vote in this context is not only to explicitly pick someone for an office, but also to implicitly accept the result of the election if they aren't voted in, one's selection . The breakdown is increasingly on that second part, with riots and protests and lawfare in the courts, even imprisonment and assassination are distinct possibilities for a politician running for office. If the government doesn't protect office seekers during an election, they'll have to provide for their own security and fighting in the streets can happen between the followers of politicians. Politicians will have to turn to private armies to avoid prison or worse if they want political office or to retire from political office without going to jail. This is why they stay in office too for as long as they can. Vote rigging to remove " bad politicians" or in the interests of " national security" as an perceived existential threat is a definite possibility to be entertained, but a sword too that cuts both ways

[Tainari88]

To vote in this context is not only to explicitly pick someone for an office, but also to implicitly accept the result of the election if they aren't voted in, one's selection . The breakdown is increasingly on that second part, with riots and protests and lawfare in the courts, even imprisonment and assassination are distinct possibilities for a politician running for office. If the government doesn't protect office seekers during an election, they'll have to provide for their own security and fighting in the streets can happen between the followers of politicians. Politicians will have to turn to private armies to avoid prison or worse if they want political office or to retire from political office without going to jail. This is why they stay in office too for as long as they can. Vote rigging to remove " bad politicians" or in the interests of " national security" as an perceived existential threat is a definite possibility to be entertained, but a sword too that cuts both ways

The reality that most people on the Left and the Right and the Middle of the political spectrum do not really have trust and confidence in many aspects of government really is interesting. The USA does not have anymore the peaceful transfer of power as Pelosi argued in the past. It is about hotly contested results. Court cases, protests, violence including storming the seats of power in DC.

The reality is that politics and power in terms of some representative dysfunctional democracy with capitalism as an underpinning force is not going to be working for your average American US based voter. That is reality. So what are the consequences? You either get involved for change, or you accept that it is broken and withdraw from political life. Hoping someday you can continue on without having to cope with the fallout of violent disagreements about who runs the US government.

I live in Mexico Annatar. I can vote in US elections and I will vote in them. But it is as an overseas voter. I will be pursuing Mexican citizenship. I plan to vote in Mexican elections in the future. When I become a citizen of Mexico.

If I lived in my home nation of Puerto Rico I never could have been able to vote for anything in the USA, and no senators or congresspeople would be able to represent my group anyway. The bank panel in Puerto Rico is unelected by the Puerto Rican people but retains all the rights to override anything voted on locally. So remaining in Puerto Rico is about accepting tyrannical rule. I can't do that. That Americans stateside continue to not give a damn about their lies to Puerto Ricans is not something that I think is going to change anytime soon.

Over time, you will have to be making decisions about what is going to happen. Remaining on the sidelines and not voting and not doing anything at all is the least effective. Everyone should be involved in the political process. No matter what. If they become involved they learn and they take action. A society that is mobilized and taking action, in the end, has a far greater chance of fixing its problems than a society of zombie-thinking people who fail to take action on anything that is affecting their day to day.

That it is imperative to be involved in your own life and the life of others is reality.

[annatar1914]

The reality that most people on the Left and the Right and the Middle of the political spectrum do not really have trust and confidence in many aspects of government really is interesting. The USA does not have anymore the peaceful transfer of power as Pelosi argued in the past. It is about hotly contested results. Court cases, protests, violence including storming the seats of power in DC.

The reality is that politics and power in terms of some representative dysfunctional democracy with capitalism as an underpinning force is not going to be working for your average American US based voter. That is reality. So what are the consequences? You either get involved for change, or you accept that it is broken and withdraw from political life. Hoping someday you can continue on without having to cope with the fallout of violent disagreements about who runs the US government.

I live in Mexico Annatar. I can vote in US elections and I will vote in them. But it is as an overseas voter. I will be pursuing Mexican citizenship. I plan to vote in Mexican elections in the future. When I become a citizen of Mexico.

If I lived in my home nation of Puerto Rico I never could have been able to vote for anything in the USA, and no senators or congresspeople would be able to represent my group anyway. The bank panel in Puerto Rico is unelected by the Puerto Rican people but retains all the rights to override anything voted on locally. So remaining in Puerto Rico is about accepting tyrannical rule. I can't do that. That Americans stateside continue to not give a damn about their lies to Puerto Ricans is not something that I think is going to change anytime soon.

Over time, you will have to be making decisions about what is going to happen. Remaining on the sidelines and not voting and not doing anything at all is the least effective. Everyone should be involved in the political process. No matter what. If they become involved they learn and they take action. A society that is mobilized and taking action, in the end, has a far greater chance of fixing its problems than a society of zombie-thinking people who fail to take action on anything that is affecting their day to day.

That it is imperative to be involved in your own life and the life of others is reality.

@Tainari88 :

My take on what should be, as opposed to what is, regarding voting in America today is that the ruling elites are at the very least subconsciously aware that all republics tend towards socialism, because voters ( also at least unconsciously)tend to desire the mutual common good.

But that is just not acceptable to any Capitalist society's rulers that actually believe in Capitalism as a socio economic system.

But since while I'm no Anarchist, I want neither system to be compulsory via revolution or government fiat. So do I try to help maintain freedom and limited and decentralized government institutions, or do I try to help develop socialist institutions and socio economic answers to societal problems?

I do both. Right is Might. If it happens it'll come by growing realization of right and wrong, as with slavery. Nor do I let the perfect be the enemy of the good

[Verv]

@Verv If you don't consider what Trump did a violation of Constitution then if Trump gets elected again and continues to damage the constitution to the point that you can't deny it anymore than will you take active action against that? I am just curious here. Since you are electing a person who might do that.

Or will you sit where you are right now thinking that you are not at fault here?

Yes, if Pres. Trump were to do something against the first amendment, or other rights in the constitution, I would be very much against it.

Our conflict is likely found in the idea that I do not think that abortion is a protected human right, or a constitutional right, though I understand how medical privacy can be a barrier to illegalizing abortion... I think it also makes sense that it could still be illegal if uncovered as having occurred, or if such a service is offered and advertised and procurable.

Abortion is... incredibly sensitive.People very close to me have made the decision to abort... Another person very close to me made the decision not to abort when they were informed their child would likely have Down's syndrome.

If you are talking about something more obscure about Trump and the Constitution, I would be curious about discussing that, too. I am not sure how much time it is but I will hear you out, gladly.

[Tainari88]

OK.

I believe in the reality of choosing the lesser of two evils.

I believe in avoiding evil in the first place and replacing evil with good and sound principles in government and in every aspect of life. My husband thinks like you do but I convinced him recently that you got to give up the evil because it is not getting better or moving life forward in politics. It is making it go into an abyss and possible Civil War over shit that can be changed.





Right, I support actively tweaking the economy to maximize benefits for mothers - pay women a fair wage to be stay at home mothers, but also hold them accountable for mothering at this point. Which would mean that parents, given the opportunity to have benefits and salaries paid to them monthly for their labor, would also face punishment and sanction for their children's criminality or misdeeds.

Yes, you will run into trouble with the Right wing who think parents who are poor are on drugs and who do not deserve any nanny government help. Go out there and work two jobs and never see your kid and spend time with the kid. The important thing is to keep those poor losers working without any benefits so they can get some money from the gig economy corporations of the world. Haven't you read what Manchin and those other Republicans and right-wing Democrats say about working-class parents in the USA? Learn your own foul thought political class' thoughts. Face reality. The Mexicans have universal child care in Mexico. I see working-class moms and dads dropping off their kids at government daycares all over the Mexican Republic. It is free. Yet, the USA with all its wealth can't do the same for their working parents. Why? Because of the lack of family values of the Conservatives and the Right Wing Democrats. Those people are working for SATAN. Accept it Verv.

Basically, anything we can do to get people to take parenting seriously should be done in addition to giving them the material wealth that they need to get it done.
They ain't doing it Verv. They are sitting on their asses and they cut off the child tax credit. Why? Did you hear the weak arguments? because the nanny state. Rugged individualism. But rich parents got six nannies each dealing with their kids. You are thinking they care about kids and families. They do not. They talk a lot of hot air. Where is the action and the MONEY? They blame it is too much money. But they got money to give to Ukraine in a war without much of anything but guaranteed death tolls on both sides. It is ridiculous.

It also goes without saying that the global economy would change rapidly if we began to end our gluttonous military spending - it would enable a lot more places to nationalize their economies and experience economic reforms, and this could rebalance all economies back towards a sort of protectionism with equitable exchanges between the developed and developing world.

Stop sounding like a flaming socialist and Commie the dirty kind they hate. Redistribute my foot. They got the dough and no inferior IQ darkie nation run by some pink commie from South America or liberal fool is gonna pressure them into giving up the profits. They work for Lucifer. They worship Mammon. Accept it.




The modern economy gave us conveniences that have led to our atomization. Because we live separate from one another, and because our economic earnings are so individualized, our educations so specialized, our labor so skilled (hopefully!), we no longer think in terms of the collective.

The reason why we no longer think about the collective is because the Left from the Great Depression onwards has been decimated by the Red Scare and elimination of any hard left political contributions. They were terrorized and removed from any influence in American society. Deliberately. Also, capitalism has been sold as a benevolent force of good and the USA is about fighting Evil versus the USSR and CHINA the evil empires. Only individualism and shit of that nature is good. Being in a collective for group solidarity based on class is anathema to the agenda of elitist crap in the USA. You are a product of that Verv and so is JohnRawls. Both of you think of good versus evil stuff that was drilled into your brain. Since you have lived in South Korea for two decades now, you have realized that cultures are not that simplistic to interpret. Just because they do not think like you do does not mean they are all evil. But many in the USA who are deeply brainwashed with propaganda bullshit day and night for generations do believe such stupidity. That is why you have people who refuse to see complexity in human behavior. It is easier to believe in those false myths of human perfection.

I think we need a happy medium between the two: the West has given us the beauty of the individual and his personal relationship to God and society as a great point of emphasis, but we must also use the technology we have developed to go toward a more Eastern model of harmonious and communal living...

The West has what? Who is the West and who in the West loves extreme individualism? According to prominent cultural anthropologists in the field doing comparison of cultural value studies the USA is the most individualistic society on planet Earth. They are only 5 % of humanity. Yet they actively eschew collective action. Why? If you have no group solidarity you then fit into a consumer manipulation that fits in with their market oriented sales oriented value system. Too many people demanding collective action makes the ones who are elitists UNCOMFORTABLE. Because you have to respond to those needs in a representative democracy. While in a plutocracy you can listen to the wealthy and their demands for your campaign fund and ignore the little people who won't be giving you political power. Again. Satan loves the Republican Party. They are doing his Devil value system. And many fall for that bullshit day and night. Most conservatives love to think that being rich and being in power and only listening to the rich and powerful is being collectivist. It is not. Lol. Most humans are POOR on the planet by a large margin including the USA. But got to listen to the Devil in the Desert who controls armies and the treasuries of many nations. That DIABLO ENCENDIDO is the one they LOVE. Kiss his devilish way. It keeps the souls enchained and without power. Misery is a great thing. Poverty is a weapon to use against the ones who want justice. Seek something fair, just, and moral and you shall be punished for it with poverty and scourging and crucifixion by the STATE. By the Caesars and so on....who love worldly power and not poverty.

Well, the far right Fascist movements were collectivist. Some more than others. It was a lot about class enmity. The works of some of these guys read very much along class terms - particularly Codreanu corners the Jews as a group of urban intellectuals and professionals who, even though they are an extreme minority, end up occupying huge percentages of key positions in government, education, press, etc.

Where are the movements of the Far Right conservatives for including all people in power sharing? It does not exist because they do not believe in equality. Egalité or igualdad is not part of their vocabulary Verv. Accept that. If you believe you are better than the lower classes as a bourgeoisie member there? You will never be into seeking equality for anyone. You will be obsessed with Jewish elitism since you are a gentile elitist. Fake Christians rear its ugly head again. I rest my case.

Just as how class & race have correlations in America, they did in Europe...

I am reading Bevins' Jakarta method now and he talks also about how nationalism and Communism could often be positively interacting in places like Indonesia.

Any true Communist worth their sale Verv will not be wasting time on overreaching nationalism. All socialists who are internationalist are by definition against nationalism that is based on imperialism and the thought that your nation first and second and last. In other words no real ties or obligations to the working class in other countries. If you are a Commie or an international socialist which I am Verv, you believe that all humans in all nations do have many issues and concerns in common. And that your obligations are to your economic and social class FIRST through all of it. Not on language, culture, and history. But as a class. Being exploited and made to suffer in a class system that is ruthless, pitiless, and dangerous to all of humanity because it lacks ethics, morals, and above all is not scientific and logical. It exploits to the point of lack of sustainability and sells a system that lacks stability and security for the vast masses as the best system in the world when all it is a bridge to something better. As all systems before it have had to be discarded because they no longer adapt to changing conditions. The ones who do not understand that are conservative in action and thought because they fight against change that does not favor the Devil and his Satanic Minions. The ones who you keep thinking respond to the needs of the working people in 195 nations when they never did a damn thing for even their own people because being class-conscious greedy Satanic lovers never are on the side of the poor, the downtrodden, or the oppressed. They are only about egotism and BULLSHIT.

Ummmmm, it's very complicated, and I assure you, the right wing is full of great values.
Where are the values Verv? Where have they wanted to defund war? Where have they put enormous resources into public education and single parents and families in general? Where have they funded supporting programs that are proven to eradicate child poverty all over the world and hunger? The USA is filled with food banks running low on staple foods because American working families are spending huge percentages of their take home pay on rents and mortgages. Where is their ability to tackle poverty? Go down the list of the Marjorie Taylor Green and the Paul Ryans and so on where they go and put tons of effort on helping poor people in the USA of every race and ethnic group? Where is the WILL TO SERVE THE LEAST of all of the society? They give enormous tax cuts to incredibly already wealthy people. Where is their track record of good values.

I've said nothing negative of the left wing... But maybe I will at some point, lol, you are encouraging me towards that end.



They haven't really, though: they think that paradise is unobtainable, you could say.

At the real bottom of the barrel of the conservative & Libertarian approach is an anti-utopian sentiment that no political system will be satisfactory enough to eliminate injustice, let alone some even larger and ever-shifting concept of poverty.
Yes, that is what they keep telling themselves. The task is too big, the problems are too hard. The will is too weak and so on and so forth. That is always the case when faced with needed changes. Throughout human history. Slavery lasted for many thousands of years. There were slaves in the Biblical times. There were societies crucifying people as punishment in some places as recently as 2017. Humanity is always resisting change that does not benefit people in power who are fine with the status quo. Stop the stupid excuses and do the action that brings forth a better world. Not sitting on your bottom and thinking slowly and nonaction is going to bring about some weak compromise. If you study nature it is interesting. You got gradual changes during many periods of geographical time. Then you got a crazy extinction-level event where change is catastrophic and fast. But from the destruction comes the phoenix. For me, radical and needed changes in political structures only reflect the natural world. Catastrophic change happens usually to build on what occurred before. The dinosaurs got hit 65 million years ago in the Yucatan Peninsula in Mexico. It created an extinction-level event. But out of that event came the evolution of birds. They gained the sky and diversified. Out of death came transformation. The Right and Conservative needs to realize.....change has to happen and the only thing stopping it is an unwillingness to work on sustainable, inclusive and humane policies. Stop loving the greed factor and the profit factor. Humans are not naturally selfish. We are communal and social. USE THAT POWER to change things.



There's a lot of libertarians who have thought along the lines of that.

The American Empire stretching across the globe is failed post-WWII idealism...

Bretton-Woods led to an international economic order in the West where we had to guarantee the free trade and independence of a wide variety of states not in the Communist sphere. We then began competing with the Communists for influence throughout the third world to secure that with the CIA... Which was a grievous mistake, but to some extent the world had been divided into different spheres of influence we thought that we had the right to exercise control over...

Americans, both left & right, bought into this fully.

The libertarian Americans and other far right Americans occasionally rejected this practice outright, and, of course, there were American leftists who also did.

Ultimately, though, a lot of this shit was stuff nobody ever voted for...

The CIA orchestrated coups in places like Guatemala and Iran with zero political accountability or representation from the American people.

Which is why the CIA should be abolished.



Most American conservatives are not extreme libertarians and support clean water, free public education...

They oppose student loan stuff because they are skeptical that the University education is worth that much.

You know who else is kinda like that..?

The French and the Germans, who have nationalized tertiary education, and who also greatly limit who can even obtain that.

So instead of monetary limitations to education for people... They are limited by how they placed on a test, which will invariably also show us class and racial inequalities in these places.



Conservatives tend to be constitutionalists and do not view the Federal government as having the right to redistribute wealth and mandate equality.



yes, absolutely: they believe in total equality before the law, and they also believe that they themselvs when they fall into poverty should strive to pull themselves up by the bootstraps, taking advantage of what minimal welfare programs exist...

that has been my experience, at least.

You see this among Koreans as well.



This is a heck of a lot of text - we're now talking about nature.





That's rough.



Well, yes... But it's also about not being lazy or irresponsible with what you have, and it is definitely about social consrvatism.

But I know how it works with liberals:

- Do not legislate your morality in terms of behavior...
- ... but my morality says you owe the poor all your money.

I think there needs to be a balance between all these things.

We cannot force people to change their personal behaviors, and we should redistribute wealth to guarantee a baseline standard of living, especially for children.

Look, Verv, the people worshipping the Satan with a lack of real action on helping people live dignified and secure lives are people who are comfortable in their own economic and social positions and think the answer to human struggles is slow and stagnant change because they like the way things are working out for them personally. One should question why they do not care about the ones doing badly in this system. Because they are the majority. They want to blame the individuals and the x or the y. The reality is that struggle is human. But having people working their entire lives and then dying and not being able to have even minimal security is not normal. You got to face the obstacles to that. And do something about it.

Making it all about some cheap individualism is a lack of logic at work. Sure, personal responsibility it important, but systemic controls are there for a reason. To serve the interests of those who control such a society. Understand that well or you will find yourself always trying to attack problems ineffectively. Boil it down to the truth. Spirituality should be about being able to serve society without any self interest, being responsible for your own life and those you love, and being able to love deeply human beings. Then letting go and allowing yourself to detach from your worldly efforts.

If you think those capitalist warmongerers and fake Christians are doing the spiritually effective job? I disagree. They are failing and worshipping el Gran Satan.

It is obvious. By their fruits you shall know them. If they give rotten fruit with an Earth full of garbage, bad air, bad water, sick animals, greed, loss of intimate connection, alienation, drug addictions and people dying like flies consuming drugs, buying guns and mass shootings, banks refusing to be responsible for their own failures and wanting the taxpayer to bail them out. Contradictions and crap galore, and they are doing the job? You keep on with that.

I won't,

[Godstud]

I am going to vote for Trump in 2024. I am going to do so not once, but twice.

[Tainari88]

I am going to vote for Trump in 2024. I am going to do so not once, but twice.

You are a Canadian. I doubt you like Justin Trudeau. Lol. You can't vote for Trump.

But have you considered Thai citizenship seriously? If you did? Who would you vote for in Thailand? Lol. The King has to be dethroned. Hee hee.

I do love you Godstud. Despite your lack of Thai language fluency. Hee hee.