[mikema63]

We can make special considerations within the law for specific cases. DACA is a perfect example of this. This isn't an adult who didn't realize prostitution was illegal and we can and should treat the cases differently as a society.

[Sivad]

If there was a way to ensure that policies like DACA or amnesties were a one-off, only applied to the people already in the country and never to be repeated, I'd be more inclined to be lenient. However, there is no guarantee and we have actually already tried it with amnesties. As they say, stupidity is making the same mistakes and expecting different result.

Aside from being a really shitty thing to do to these people it's not going to accomplish much. The most that will come of this is a lot of poor immigrants get royally fucked over. Mass deportations and giant walls aren't acceptable solutions, ending the predatory foreign economic policy which creates the poverty that drives illegal immigration would be much more effective and humane.

[Suntzu]

Yeah, Mexico and Central America are poor because of predatory foreign economic policy.

[Rich]

We're never going to eliminate lying and bullshit from politics, but we can all do our bit to reduce it. but it needs people to hold the politicians of their own partisanship to account. In this instance we need to attack all the politicians who criticised Obama for DACA, but now seek to delay its abolition. Its the same with the Republicans who were for repealing Obama care while Obama was President but now seek to keep it. Although even the repeal under Obama was fake.

I take exactly the same attitude to Democrats who were doves on Russia while Obama was President but have now turned into hypocritical anti Russian hawks.

[Ter]

Yes, there certainly are arguments for keeping DACA.

You seem to oppose it. No doubt you will provide arguments for getting rid of it.

The politicians are hated by many because they promise a lot and do not honour their election promises.
What I think is not relevant in this case but it is a fact that Donald Trump promised to deport as many illegal immigrants as possible.
Now that he implements his election promise POD and others are crying bitter tears.
Isn't it suspicious that sending illegal immigrants away hurts the feelings of the "democrats"? I refer to my suspicion that the Democrats see those young adults in the DACA programme as future voters for the democratic party.

[Zagadka]

That, or they could believe that those kids could easily be productive members of society and sending them to a shitstain country they've never been to would be a dick move.

Of course POD and others are crying tears. It is sad. "Now that he implements his election promise"... yea, people were crying since November because they knew this was coming.

It is effectively dooming a lot of kids to a place where they have no room for growth. Their presence here is not enough of a drag on the economy or anything else to justify that. There are better, smarter solutions.

[Pants-of-dog]

The politicians are hated by many because they promise a lot and do not honour their election promises.

...only if you assume they keep their promises.

What I think is not relevant in this case but it is a fact that Donald Trump promised to deport as many illegal immigrants as possible.
Now that he implements his election promise POD and others are crying bitter tears.
Isn't it suspicious that sending illegal immigrants away hurts the feelings of the "democrats"? I refer to my suspicion that the Democrats see those young adults in the DACA programme as future voters for the democratic party.

You must have me confused with someone else. I am neither a Democrat supporter nor do I have any emotions about DACA or the people involved.

Feel free to show me where I cried bitter tears, but you may have noticed that I think feelings are irrelevant.

And you still have no argument. Pretending I am emotional is not an argument.

[mikema63]

It should also be noted that kids who took part of their education in the US and return to mexico before completing high school often aren't accepted into mexican schools. They often don't know how to write and read in spanish well and Mexico doesn't offer an equivalent to our ESL programs. They also have a hard time even getting in to the schools because of the bureaucracy involved in the Mexican system and the differences between the systems (mexico issues certificates for elementary and middle school that are required to get into a Mexican high school but we don't have an equivalent). They also face integration issues because surprise these kids are more american than they are Mexican.

We are dooming god knows how many kids to a terrible fate all because of some abstract principle and your feelings about illegal immigrants.

[Ter]

We are dooming god knows how many kids to a terrible fate all because of some abstract principle and your feelings about illegal immigrants.

It would be more correct to stop calling them "kids" because that invokes emotions which should not be part of this discussion.

Both you and POD have now avoided twice to reply about my hypothesis that those ACA young adults are seen as a "vote bank" for the democrats. Do you deny it or is your silence an acceptance?

You are correct to mention the problem of education certificates when having to transition from one system to another one. Well, that is a self-inflicted problem. My own children cannot easily integrate in the education system of our citizenship because we live in a country where they have the British education system. The parents of those DACA stay-overs are the ones to blame. They should not have hoped to stay illegally in the US forever.

[Zagadka]

Both you and POD have now avoided twice to reply about my hypothesis that those ACA young adults are seen as a "vote bank" for the democrats. Do you deny it or is your silence an acceptance?

You give way too much agency to the Democrats as an organization and operate on a premise that the GOP doesn't do the exact same thing in both this and other cases. The Republicans are the ones who do things like demand voter ID but refuse to consider a national ID because the minorities are less likely to have state ID. Among other things. Which doesn't even get into more systematic methods like gerrymandering or the electoral college. Also, Hispanics and blacks also tend to be more socially conservative (though the horse has kinda left the stable on the whole gay thing).

[Beren]

It's not really a bad idea to overview and regulate the issue. 5 years could be enough to decide whether some people should stay in the US or not. I mean if someone has become a criminal in the last 5 years, then he should be deported, but if he has made great accomplishments or has only become a good citizen, then he should stay. This is what made America great rather than people like Trump and I think this is the smart and rational approach. Being a dogmatic and heartless little bastard doesn't make anybody smart and rational. It's also an interesting matter whether President Obama abused his executive power and acted unconstitutionally when created the program. However, Trump is smart and rational to bring this up as he cannot accomplish anything regarding North Korea. He attacks Obama and his legacy while challenging Congress and outreaching to his core base which could be described as anti-Obama and anti-immigration basically.

Also: How the decision to end DACA affects Dreamers

[mikema63]

It would be more correct to stop calling them "kids"

They are kids.

because that invokes emotions which should not be part of this discussion.

Sorry that your position is so fundamentally bad that it causes a visceral reaction in people, but I'm not going to sugar coat it to help you make your case.

Both you and POD have now avoided twice to reply about my hypothesis that those ACA young adults are seen as a "vote bank" for the democrats. Do you deny it or is your silence an acceptance?

It's a stupid point. Beyond PoD being Canadian and having no love for the democrats Hispanics are as a whole a socially conservative and religious voting block that the republicans would have very little trouble being competitive in except they do shit like this. Democrats are supporting a fundamentally sound position.

You are correct to mention the problem of education certificates when having to transition from one system to another one. Well, that is a self-inflicted problem. My own children cannot easily integrate in the education system of our citizenship because we live in a country where they have the British education system. The parents of those DACA stay-overs are the ones to blame. They should not have hoped to stay illegally in the US forever.

And so, you think we should pass policy to punish those children for the crimes of their parents.

I disagree.

[Pants-of-dog]

It would be more correct to stop calling them "kids" because that invokes emotions which should not be part of this discussion.

If mikema63 is discussing integration into high school, it makes sense to describe the people involved as kids.

Both you and POD have now avoided twice to reply about my hypothesis that those ACA young adults are seen as a "vote bank" for the democrats. Do you deny it or is your silence an acceptance?

Feel free to see it as acceptance. It makes sense and it does not matter one way or the other.

You are correct to mention the problem of education certificates when having to transition from one system to another one. Well, that is a self-inflicted problem. My own children cannot easily integrate in the education system of our citizenship because we live in a country where they have the British education system. The parents of those DACA stay-overs are the ones to blame. They should not have hoped to stay illegally in the US forever.

Sure. Blame them. I am not discussing blame. I am discussing consequences.

The economic impact is easy to calculate.

Just multiply the number of people sent back by the average cost it takes to educate them, and that is all loss to the US economy.

[One Degree]

Has anyone considered a compromise of ending the program and exempting those who have been here over a set period of time? Obviously those who have been here less than 20% of their lives should not have much of a problem as those who have been here 50% of their lives.

[Beren]

So Obama vs Trump is on.

Also: Democrats slam the end of DACA, while Republicans are mixed

[Hindsite]

Because your emotional bias for throwing out people who came her unknowingly and have grown up and know nothing but America is super rational.

President Trump has promised to take care of the Dreamers, because he loves them. All he is doing now is put a deadline date of 6 months for the Congress to do their job and create a law that solves this problem for good. He does not want to continue to disobey law, like Obama has done.

Anyway, if Congress does not do their job and the Dreamers have to leave, they can just move into Canada. They have good jobs, free healthcare, and have many English speaking people there, and I am sure Pants-of-dog would welcome them with open arms. He may even take some into his own home for awhile. HalleluYah.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

I tend to think that all the whiners who want DACA to continue have other motives. I speculate that they hope that those hundreds of thousands young adults will find a way to obtain citizenship and swell the ranks of the Clitoristas and other "Democrats" to vote for a Democrat President.

I think that most just follow their emotions on this. It is similar to many people in Europe who saw the images of women and children during the refugee crisis.

But you are nevertheless right that this is a possible, if not likely, outcome. There are certainly plenty of people on the left who view illegal immigrants as potential future voters, and after a policy like DACA has been in place for a while and become accepted and normal, these people will start floating arguments in favour of a path to citizenship which will, as always, resonate with the vast majority of the left and perhaps even some on the centre right. It would, after all, be cruel to leave these young people in limbo, never sure whether their next application to stay for another two years will be approved and living under a constant threat to be deported in two years' time. Employers will be reluctant to hire "dreamers" in any but short-term roles that require no training, as their legal resident status is not ensured long term. Many of them have a good education, even degrees, and would no doubt be productive citizens. And so on and so forth. And once there is a path to citizenship, there will be chain migration, and the parents who brought their kids as illegal immigrants will have a path to citizenship as well.

Further, DACA was of course meant to work in conjunction with other policies such as DAPA (Deferred Action for Parents of Americans and Lawful Permanent Residents) which was shot down by the courts, and advanced parole which makes the path to permanent residence and citizenship much easier for illegals.

Aside from being a really shitty thing to do to these people it's not going to accomplish much. The most that will come of this is a lot of poor immigrants get royally fucked over. Mass deportations and giant walls aren't acceptable solutions, ending the predatory foreign economic policy which creates the poverty that drives illegal immigration would be much more effective and humane.

It isn't any more "shitty" than having borders. Children are born into third world hellholes all the time, obviously through no fault of their own. And the vast majority of those kids will be far worse off than those eligible for DACA should they be deported. The left's claim that empathy is their most important driver rings hollow to me, but at the very least it's short-sighted and self-serving.

As for ending push factors, you are welcome to try and I wish you good luck. Until that is achieved, pragmatic and rational people will support policies that can be implemented domestically, are achievable now and have an excellent chance to serve as a disincentive for illegal migrants.

They are kids.

They are not. You might get away with stretching the definition of "child" to cover a 16-year-old, but I hope even you can't call a person aged 25 or 30 a child with a straight face.

Sure. Blame them. I am not discussing blame. I am discussing consequences.

The economic impact is easy to calculate.

Just multiply the number of people sent back by the average cost it takes to educate them, and that is all loss to the US economy.

The absurdity of arguments like this is truly remarkable. After pushing for tolerance for and accommodation of illegal immigrants and partially succeeding, the cost that people like you have imposed on society is then used as an argument against deportation. And ridiculously, this isn't the only area where this type of reasoning is used. It has been invoked with respect to law enforcement too, where illegals are now apparently critical in solving crimes and need to feel safe to come forward.

This is another reason why programmes like DACA need to be opposed. They serve as a springboard for future arguments along the same lines, whereby the left will use the negative consequences that their policies have caused to argue in favour of more of the same policies.

[mikema63]

Yeah because only people 25 and up are effected by DACA.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Yeah because only people 25 and up are effected by DACA.

This is the third time I'm telling you this, so perhaps you'll have the decency to address it: People between 16 and 30 years are eligible for DACA which means that the average "dreamer" is an adult and the majority of "dreamers" are adults. Furthermore, a 16-year-old is not really a child either, but a teenager or a minor.

[Igor Antunov]

I didn't even know this existed. What a travesty. Obama was a rat traitor.