[Godstud]

Why are cis men and women allowed to make medical decisions for trans folk, while Rep. Zephyr is not? Adults should be able to decide for themselves. If you can go to war, you can mutilate your body as you see fit.

Nice fact: Trans activism is funded by people connected to the medical transitioning industry.

If you are discussing gender identity, then it is not simply a social construct. For example, I define my gender identity as male for various reasons including basic biological reasons like my male genitals, and male hormones, and male secondary characteristics. Do you do that too?

Gender isn't genitals. That's biological sex. Gender is tied to how a person identifies. It's subjective. Sex is not(except in extremely rare circumstances).

You can identify as a "woman" now, based on how you feel and not on the biological facts that say you are male. I don't make the rules. Your trans activists do.

I never said it's a PURELY social construct. Most people stick to facts, not feelings.

[Pants-of-dog]

@Godstud

Again, your justification for the censorship makes no sense.

Also, you do not seem to know what gender identity is.

[Godstud]

People censor things that are unhealthy for society. That's why they can't do cigarette ads on TV, anymore. Transgender activism is an ideology that is unhealthy for society.

As for the "You don't know what gender is", poppycock... You're just being difficult, @Pants-of-dog. You're the one who doesn't know what the definition is. Here is it just for you.

Gender
the male sex or the female sex, [i]especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones, or one of a range of other identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.[/i]

[Pants-of-dog]

People censor things that are unhealthy for society. That's why they can't do cigarette ads on TV, anymore. Transgender activism is an ideology that is unhealthy for society.

What did Rep. Zephyr say that was unhealthy?

As far as I can see, the people saying unhealthy things are the ones banning medical treatments.

So, by your logic, the Republicans should be censored.

As for the "You don't know what gender is", poppycock... You're just being difficult, @Pants-of-dog. You're the one who doesn't know what the definition is. Here is it just for you.

Gender
the male sex or the female sex, [i]especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones, or one of a range of other identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.[/i]

Again, you seem to not know what gender IDENTITY is.

[Unthinking Majority]

As far as I can see, the people saying unhealthy things are the ones banning medical treatments.

Allowing 11 year olds to cut off their dongs and boobs is healthy? Minors taking puberty blockers and artificial hormones is healthy?

I've dated multiple women that starting having mental health disorders when they just started taking birth control Imagine full blown hormones and hormone blockers.

[Saeko]

Transexualism is not a woman's issue. You are being purposefully disingenuous.

It was you who said that trans-WOMEN do not get to speak on women's issues. Deciding whether or not trans-women get to speak on women's issues is itself a women's issue.

A woman is an adult female. That is the definition of woman.

There are many adult females that are not women (trans-men) and many women that are not adult females (trans-women), so your definition is faulty.

A man dressing as a woman is not a woman. Your statements are asinine.

What man dressing as a woman? I thought we were talking about trans people?

Coirrect. Gender is a social construct. Sex, however, is not. You are either born a male or a female(we know there are exceptions, but they are much less than 1% of the population).

No one is saying that you cannot FEEL like a man or a woman, and dress/act accordingly, but this does not change your sex, and even operations, hormone treatments, etc., do not change your genetic makeup.

Ok, but you keep saying "woman" when you clearly meant to say "adult female", as if the two things were the same.

[Pants-of-dog]

Allowing 11 year olds to cut off their dongs and boobs is healthy? Minors taking puberty blockers and artificial hormones is healthy?

I've dated multiple women that starting having mental health disorders when they just started taking birth control Imagine full blown hormones and hormone blockers.

I will assume that you, like @Godstud , either did not read the quoted evidence in this thread, or you are deliberately ignoring it for some reason.

[Godstud]

Ok, but you keep saying "woman" when you clearly meant to say "adult female", as if the two things were the same.

The very definition of woman is "adult female". You and other trans activists don't like that words have meanings and are engaged in delusion.

A trans woman will never be a "woman". A trans-man will never be a "man". They will always be transitioning because it is impossible to fully BE one or the other unless you were born as one.

There are many adult females that are not women (trans-men) and many women that are not adult females (trans-women), so your definition is faulty.

You talk about the exceptions and not the rule. That's not an argument. Some women are born incapable of having children, but that does not mean they are not women.

Some people are born with only 1 leg. Does that mean that saying a human has 2 legs isn't correct? Does it mean that there is a spectrum of leg numbers? no. We have an assumption that humans have 2 legs and 2 arms.


A trans-man is still, technically a woman. They still have the biological makeup of a woman, despite trying(sometimes succeeding) to APPEAR as a man. They will get illnesses associated with women. A trans-woman will STILL have illnesses associated with a man's biology, as well. A trans-woman will never have a menstrual cycle or get pregnant. A trans-man will never produce sperm, or naturally produce testosterone(at male levels).

What man dressing as a woman? :?: I thought we were talking about trans people?

What do you think a trans-woman is? That's what a trans-person is doing. They are only taking on the trappings of the gender that they identify with. That's absolutely fine, but in reality they are still (if we go by their birth sex) a man dressing as a woman.

I will assume that you, like @Godstud , either did not read the quoted evidence in this thread, or you are deliberately ignoring it for some reason.

You ignored the evidence I provided(that disputed your claim about science supporting this trash), so piss off with your sanctimonious act.

[Pants-of-dog]

@Godstud

You also seem to have skipped over my response to you quoting the nonagenarian.

Not reading my posts carefully or not reading them at all or forgetting you have read them is not a rebuttal.

1. Your justification of censorship:

You claimed that we should censor unhealthy things. I had already provided evidence showing that banning gender affirming care for minors would lead to a significant increase in suicide, and then pointed out that this means we should censor the Republicans.

2. Your confusion about gender:

You seem to think that gender identity is a social construct like gender norms and gender roles. And you seem to believe this based solely on the fact that the word “gender” is used. I pointed out that this would mean that you only think of yourself as male because others told you to do so.

3. You still have not addressed the evidence showing trans care for minors reduces suicide.

And if you really want to know what practicing medical professionals at Johns Hopkins think:

"Gender-affirming care is evidence-based medical best practice that, for transgender, nonbinary, and gender diverse people, is essential health care that enhances quality of life and overall well-being," wrote Pierre Joanis, JHU's vice president for human resources; Kevin Shollenberger, JHU's vice provost for student health and well-being; and Inez Stewart, senior vice president and chief human resources officer for Johns Hopkins Medicine, in a message to the Johns Hopkins community.
"It is our obligation to ensure that our services and benefits to employees and students are reviewed regularly so that all members of our community are able to thrive personally and professionally here at Hopkins," said JHU President Ron Daniels. "Members of our community who are transgender and nonbinary made it clear that these enhancements were important and meaningful to them, and we are pleased to now provide them as part of our standard benefits program and services."

https://hub.jhu.edu/2022/07/01/johns-ho ... d-support/

[Saeko]

The very definition of woman is "adult female". You and other trans activists don't like that words have meanings and are engaged in delusion.

This is an appeal to definition fallacy. Just because the word "woman" is defined as "adult female" in some dictionaries does not mean that all women are adult females. Dictionaries are merely a record of how words have historically been used. They are not an authoritative source on scientific or philosophical questions.

A trans woman will never be a "woman". A trans-man will never be a "man". They will always be transitioning because it is impossible to fully BE one or the other unless you were born as one.

I think you are confused. Tans (wo)men were born as (wo)men, just in the wrong type of body.

:roll: You talk about the exceptions and not the rule. That's not an argument. Some women are born incapable of having children, but that does not mean they are not women.

I'm glad we agree on that. And I would add to that just because some women don't have vaginas does not mean they are not women either.

Some people are born with only 1 leg. Does that mean that saying a human has 2 legs isn't correct?

Of course humans have two legs. It's one thing to say that humans have two legs. It's quite another to insist that a person born with only one leg can never be a person with two legs because they were born with only one leg.

Does it mean that there is a spectrum of leg numbers? no.

Well, yes, actually. Yes it does.

We have an assumption that humans have 2 legs and 2 arms.

When you assume you make an ass out of u and me.

A trans-man is still, technically a woman.

A trans-man is a man born into a female body. Why is this so hard to understand?

What do you think a trans-woman is?

A trans-woman is a woman born into a male body. Why is this so hard to understand?

That's what a trans-person is doing. They are only taking on the trappings of the gender that they identify with. That's absolutely fine, but in reality they are still (if we go by their birth sex) a man dressing as a woman.

A trans-woman is a woman dressing as a woman. Your confusion on this matter is profound.

[Godstud]

This is an appeal to definition fallacy. Just because the word "woman" is defined as "adult female" in some dictionaries does not mean that all women are adult females. Dictionaries are merely a record of how words have historically been used. They are not an authoritative source on scientific or philosophical questions.

Facts are not fallacies. Words have meanings and your mealy-mouthed talk is just deflecting from facts.

I think you are confused. Tans (wo)men were born as (wo)men, just in the wrong type of body.

That's a belief, not a fact.

I'm glad we agree on that. And I would add to that just because some women don't have vaginas does not mean they are not women either.

I never said otherwise. Some people have 1 leg but are considered human, despite humans generally having 2.

Of course humans have two legs. It's one thing to say that humans have two legs. It's quite another to insist that a person born with only one leg can never be a person with two legs because they were born with only one leg. That's not what's being said.

A person with only 1 leg has a handicap. A person born male who FEELS like a woman, is suffering from gender dysmorphia, and needs help.

Well, yes, actually. Yes it does.

No. That's a lie. Humans are generally born with 2 legs and two arms, barring some calamity or illness.

A trans-man is a man born into a female body. Why is this so hard to understand?
A trans-woman is a woman born into a male body. Why is this so hard to understand?

Again, you're dealing with beliefs. I am dealing with facts. I can understand someone feeling a certain way, but that does not make it a reality.

I am not confused @Pants-of-dog. You are. That science does not have a consensus on this is obvious. It's psychology vs biology.

Transitioning does affect suicide rates, but it's worse if you transition.
Sex Reassignment Doesn’t Work. Here Is the Evidence.
When ‘the tumult and shouting dies,’ it proves not easy nor wise to live in a counterfeit sexual garb. The most thorough follow-up of sex-reassigned people—extending over 30 years and conducted in Sweden, where the culture is strongly supportive of the transgendered—documents their lifelong mental unrest. Ten to 15 years after surgical reassignment, the suicide rate of those who had undergone sex-reassignment surgery rose to 20 times that of comparable peers.
https://www.heritage.org/gender/comment ... e-evidence

[Fasces]

Sex Reassignment Doesn’t Work. Here Is the Evidence.
When ‘the tumult and shouting dies,’ it proves not easy nor wise to live in a counterfeit sexual garb. The most thorough follow-up of sex-reassigned people—extending over 30 years and conducted in Sweden, where the culture is strongly supportive of the transgendered—documents their lifelong mental unrest. Ten to 15 years after surgical reassignment, the suicide rate of those who had undergone sex-reassignment surgery rose to 20 times that of comparable peers

The claim: Sexual reassignment reduces suicide rates of transgendered individuals compared to transgendered individuals who do not undergo gender reassignment.

The study: transgender persons who transition commit suicide at rates 20x higher than non transgendered people.

How does this address the claim?

The CDC says:

1. 2% of Americans (including transgendered people) attempt suicide at some point in their life.
2. 50% of transgendered individuals have attempted suicide at some point of their lives prior to transition.

If suicide rates decline from 25x to the general population for 15 years then return to 20x to the general population, that's still an improvement? It's certainly not an additional harm.

In fact, the study concludes as much:

Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group.

And again, for people in the back

gender affirming care is not synonymous with gender reassignment surgery

[Godstud]

20 times that of comparable peers. That means transgender people who did not transition, not EVERYONE. Nice try but you're simply changing the context of what I posted to push your agenda.

Why are all these people pushing trans activism so against real biological women?

[Fasces]

@Godstud

No, dude, look at the study. There's a link to it in your own article.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... ne.0016885

Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population.

The "comparable peers" is language interjected by the Heritage guy. The study compares it to the general population, not other transgendered people. Don't change the context of the study to suit an agenda.

[AFAIK]

A man dressing as a woman is not a woman.

You're thinking of transvestites i.e cross-dressers. That's a completely different category.

[skinster]

If your understanding of sex comes from a 7th grade textbook, it may explain your lack of knowledge about biological sex.

You don't need a textbook to explain basic biology, it's something intuitive. Something young children could easily point out and differentiate between. Something even some other animals can understand the difference between. Yet here you lot are, pretending there is a question mark over what a woman is.

Sex is immutable.

This is a fact about current medical technology, and not at all a fact about biological sex.

Sex is immutable. It is not open to change. It resides in every single cell of our body and physical ambiguity over less than 1% of the population does not dictate the rule.

I literally just quoted an article about a study showing a 73% decrease in suicide if minors can access gender affirming care.

And yet, here YOU are, speaking on women's issues, deciding who does and doesn't get to be a woman. Why is it okay for you to speak on women's issues and not for Zephyr?

Both Godstud and Zephyr are men and only the former is correct when it comes to this issue/reality.

And nobody gets to decide on who is a woman, she either is one or is not.

How does this justify the censorship?

Your constant bleating about censorship when you support compelled speech and ignored the attack on Riley Gaines rings incredibly hollow.

She was attacked for this speech where she was upset about being displaced in her sports competition by a bloke, as well as the discomfort she and other women in her sports team felt with that massive bloke in their changing rooms.


She was punched and forced to run and hide in a bathroom (for 3 hours) until security could keep her away from that mob of your mates.

[Pants-of-dog]

@Godstud

This thing where you ignore evidence and arguments just makes it look like you agree with my arguments and cannot refute the evidence.

Anyway, yes, trans people still deal with higher suicide rates than the general population even after gender affirming surgery. However, trans people who get the surgery are significantly less likely to commit suicide than trans people who can not get surgery.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamasu ... ct/2779429

@skinster

That study was literally just discussed. Note that whoever you quoted is also using the same incorrect claim of comparable peers. Just like the right wing conservative website that originally misrepresented the info.

[skinster]

Still nothing on the vicious attack on Riley Gaines after it being put to you a couple of times.

The BE KIND crew are a riot and remain unconvincing.

[Pants-of-dog]

@skinster

As far as I can tell, Ms. Gaines was not attacked. The only evidence is her claims. Since she has found a way to personally profit from such claims, she has direct financial incentive to lie.

Nor did she have to hide in a bathroom. Police escorted her to a classroom where she waited until the cops dispersed the protesters for her.

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/ ... 884740.php

[Fasces]

gender affirming care is not synonymous with gender reassignment surgery