[Robert Urbanek]

I would think, if not fear mongering, as least fear would be an important component in addressing climate chaos. People who feared dying from COVID got vaccinated. People leave a burning building because they fear being burned alive or dying from smoke inhalation.

People should fear how various aspects of climate change will ruin their lives and act accordingly, beginning with consuming as few resources as humanly possible. The more you buy, the more you kill, as everything you consume requires energy to make.

Developing nations have the right to ignore us completely if we don't set an example instead of doing the exact opposite.

[Godstud]

You did not suggest a different avenue for discussing climate that works

I am telling you that the tactic that you inevitably go back to, does not work. Have you tried anything else?

Note that I did exactly as you asked and instead you got offended and falsely accused me of attacking you.

False. You simply say I am a denier because I don't think like you and think that the fear tactic is counter-productive.

Can you show me where I did any fear mongering in this thread?

I don't have the time or inclination to provide you that which you are already aware of. That you always DEFEND fear-mongering is validation, itself.

[Pants-of-dog]

I am telling you that the tactic that you inevitably go back to, does not work. Have you tried anything else?

Yes.

False. You simply say I am a denier because I don't think like you and think that the fear tactic is counter-productive.

Show me where I called you a denier.

I don't have the time or inclination to provide you that which you are already aware of. That you always DEFEND fear-mongering is validation, itself.

Show me where I used this tactic..

[Steve_American]

@Steve_American You don't seem to want a reasonable and rational discussion as you seem to be attacking me and not what I say. I never deleted anything you said. Your "viewers" can see that for themselves, and you can stop pandering to imaginary people. It doesn't matter. I asked them and they said you're being silly.

[highlight==yellow]If I missed your so-called solutions, it's only because your "solutions" are just NOT actually solutions.[/highlight]They are pie-in-the-sky ideas. Most of the ideas are unrealistic and absurd, as well.

Who is going to make them, install them and pay for them, or is that not part of this that you took into account? What will these mirrors cover? Cropland? Mountains?

How many ships? Who will provide them? Do you realize that ships use a lot of fuel and so you'll be counter-acting the very thing that you are trying to accomplish?

FFS, do you know how stupid this is? You suggest causing MORE pollution. Nevermind the logistical impossibility of such a thing.

Please remove your head from your butt. I respond to realistic solutions, and not imaginary fantasies that have no place in a reasonable discussion.

I didn't post your solutions because they're a joke. You made up lazy and logistically impossible fantasies.

USA is not the only country in the world, and you can't seem to understand that. I should have guessed by your name that you'd be a little America-centric, but not every country is as wealthy and can respond to AGW like the USA can, nor has the will to do so. How are you going to sell your crazy solutions to them?

"Sorry citizen. We'd like to feed you, really we would, but we've got to pay for more mirrors and cover your crop-land."

"We will be taking your fishing boat so we can spray water into the air instead of you using it to feed your family."

"Sorry about your crops, but we had to spray pollutants in the air to stop AGW. Your family dies in a good cause, though."

Not every idea is a good one. Not every idea can be done. We have to be realistic about what we can and cannot do.

You don't care to even attempt to understand what I am saying. You are not trying to. That is not because you are stupid, but because you don't want to admit that your fear-mongering tactics are failing. I merely suggest another avenue and I am called a Denier. Your arguments are dishonest and disingenuous.

@late What you fail to understand is that I am not making excuses. What I am saying is that the fear-mongering isn't making you the allies that you need to combat AGW. Why is that so hard for you, and @Pants-of-dog, to understand? You create your own antagonists, even when someone, like me, is not arguing AGAINST solutions and action to combat AGW.

You call me a "denier", but I am not denying the existence of AGW. I am arguing against fear-mongering as a tactic in gaining support to combat AGW. It's having the opposite effect, as far as I can see. Can you understand that, or is it too complex? :?:

Lurkers, Godstud wrote: "I didn't post your solutions because they're a joke. You made up lazy and logistically impossible fantasies."

I didn'y make up any of those 3. Other people, experts, did.

Godstud claims that he has looked at climate change deeply. Yet, he doesn't know about a common solution, which is to spray SO2 into the stratosphere. He calls it "pollution". Volcanoes do this when they erupt, we do it when we burn coal. Yes, the SO2 will ne constantly falling to the lower atmosphere. 70% will fallinto the oceans. The rest will make acid rain a tiny bit worse.

Has he seen reports that the North Atlantic is being heated more by the sun Because we reduce the sulfur content of ship fuel from 3.5% to 0.5%, so in areas where there are a lot of ships crossing, there is much less SO2 in the air reflecting light back into space?

I suggested putting the mirrors in deserts. Maybe they can be put of roofs in cities. I'm sure the experts didn't intend to shade crops so they can't grow. I'll leave it to them to suggest more places to put mirrors.

We would be converting big ships to spray sea water into the air to make clouds to shade the Arctic Ocean. They need to be very big. Maybe a few connected together like a huge catamaran. They need to be big because they need a tall "chimney" to get the water way up there. Really way up there.

Who pays, he asks? The rich of the West Gov. pay. The world uses fiat money now. Govs. can deficit spend with the only limit being inflation. If there are price controls and rationing as I have proposed, there can be no inflation.

Godstud denies just how big the problem is. He admits that there is a small problem that will slowly get worse over the next many decades or even until 2200. Yes, he never gave us a number, so I made that up. You decide if he thinks we have that long. He isn't in any hurry, now, though. I'm asserting that there are clear signs that the rate of temp increase has suddenly increased by a factor of between 3 and 10. And remember, there is no upper limit on how fast the temp can increase, it can always get faster.
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[Godstud]

@Steve_American You show these so-called solutions, but have you even considered them to any degree?

So what are mirrors made of, that you will place everywhere? Silver. So you need to mine for that. You need to pay for them, too. How many will you need to make a difference?

SO2 is a pollutant. Where does the money come from to produce it? How much of it do you think you need to make a difference? What are the environmental impacts of this? Do you want this thing in your back yard?

You want to MAKE boats. That takes money. So does fuel for the pumps.

None of these solutions are even slightly reasonable(I also very much doubt the effectiveness, too) and I don't care what scientist thought them up as a gag.

@Steve_American wants Americans to fix the problem with their money and freedoms. Lurkers can see that, too. Pretending you just print money is a lie.

[Steve_American]

@Steve_American You show these so-called solutions, but have you even considered them to any degree?

So what are mirrors made of, that you will place everywhere? Silver. So you need to mine for that. You need to pay for them, too. How many will you need to make a difference?

SO2 is a pollutant. Where does the money come from to produce it? How much of it do you think you need to make a difference? What are the environmental impacts of this? Do you want this thing in your back yard?

You want to MAKE boats. That takes money. So does fuel for the pumps.

None of these solutions are even slightly reasonable(I also very much doubt the effectiveness, too) and I don't care what scientist thought them up as a gag.

@Steve_American wants Americans to fix the problem with their money and freedoms. Lurkers can see that, too. Pretending you just print money is a lie.

That is a lie. Can't he read?

I said in the 1st reply just above this reply, that my solution is to CONVERT SHIPS, not make boats. I never used the word boats. Converting big ships is hugely cheaper than building them.
It seems likely that as globalization winds down there will be a lot of surplus cargo ships.

Every solution is going to cost money and require energy. So what? Everything costs money and requires energy.

Godstud denies the financial power of the US. In 2008 and 2009 it created $27 trillion to prop up US and worldwide banks so they didn't fail. That number came from a FOIA request to the Fed for how much it spent/lent to prop up the banks. It is an official number of dollars.
During the covid pandemic the US Gov. spent $5.5 trillion to prop up the economy.

None of those trillions were off-set with tax increases or spending cuts.

Godstud is still wondering where the US Gov. gets dollars to spend.

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[Godstud]

@Steve_American I can read, but can you? You didn't answer the questions. You made vague assertions. So YOU are lying, if you want to start that nonsense.

So you convert ships and then what? You think the uses for ships is trivial? Most ships are specialized. Eg. Tug boats, freighters, fishing trawlers, oil tankers, etc. You think people don't need food, goods, etc.? Pretending you are not going to have to MAKE boats(ships, barges, etc.), is ignoring reality. How are you going to enforce this "conversion", too? Are you going to steal people's ships or buy them?

Globalization is NOT about to wind down. That's a false assumption to make. Globalization is the result of Capitalism. I don't see Capitalism disappearing any time soon.

Every solution is going to cost money and require energy. So what? Everything costs money and requires energy.

Are you going to pay for it all? Do you think everyone is as wealthy as you are? Have you answered the questions I put to you? Nope.

None of those trillions were off-set with tax increases or spending cuts.

Keep telling yourself that. You pay for it, one way or the other.

Godstud denies the financial power of the US. In 2008 and 2009 it created $27 trillion to prop up US and worldwide banks so they didn't fail. That number came from a FOIA request to the Fed for how much it spent/lent to prop up the banks. It is an official number of dollars.
During the covid pandemic the US Gov. spent $5.5 trillion to prop up the economy.

Americans paid for that. Money doesn't magically appear without some consequences.

Godstud is still wondering where the US Gov. gets dollars to spend.

Petro dollars. But seeing as the US is having a lot of inflation, right now, it seems like you pay for it eventually. I appreciate you regarding me in the third person, but it's silly, and you are not addressing anyone else her, but me. I purposefully log in 5,000 times a day to inflate the numbers.

[Steve_American]

@Steve_American I can read, but can you? You didn't answer the questions. You made vague assertions. So YOU are lying, if you want to start that nonsense.

So you convert ships and then what? You think the uses for ships is trivial? Most ships are specialized. Eg. Tug boats, freighters, fishing trawlers, oil tankers, etc. You think people don't need food, goods, etc.? Pretending you are not going to have to MAKE boats(ships, barges, etc.), is ignoring reality. How are you going to enforce this "conversion", too? Are you going to steal people's ships or buy them?

Globalization is NOT about to wind down. That's a false assumption to make. Globalization is the result of Capitalism. I don't see Capitalism disappearing any time soon.

Are you going to pay for it all? Do you think everyone is as wealthy as you are? Have you answered the questions I put to you? Nope.

Keep telling yourself that. You pay for it, one way or the other.

Americans paid for that. Money doesn't magically appear without some consequences.


Petro dollars.But seeing as the US is having a lot of inflation, right now, it seems like you pay for it eventually. I appreciate you regarding me in the third person, but it's silly, and you are not addressing anyone else her, but me. I purposefully log in 5,000 times a day to inflate the numbers.

Gudstud denies the truth of the Fed's [the Fed in San Fransisco] report that just about .4 percentage of the 6% or 7% inflation was caused by the covid spending, the rest was caused by other factors; like shortages from factory lockdown worldwide and shipping snafus, OPEC raising oil prices, Ukraine, and corps making record profits because they increased prices to price gouge the people.

He wants the inflation to be caused by the covid spending. So, that's what he believes. He must think that the Fed must be lying or deluded.
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[Godstud]

Steve_American is making up shit as he goes along. I did not mention Covid spending. Strawman fallacy. Grow up.

[late]

@Godstud

You did not suggest a different avenue for discussing climate that works

Note that I did exactly as you asked and instead you got offended and falsely accused me of attacking you.

Can you show me where I did any fear mongering in this thread?

He is fully aware of his hypocrisy..

[Godstud]

@late There is no hypocrisy. You are simply not smart enough to understand what I am saying, and you have no interest in trying to understand it because if I don't think exactly like you, then I am 100% against you. This seems to be more common now, than it used to be. Critical thinking be damned. Follow the rhetoric and be a good little ideologue.

[late]

@late There is no hypocrisy. You are simply not smart enough to understand what I am saying...

You have the same dumbass conversation for a generation, you get tired of the dumbasses.

It's always been about finding excuses to do nothing.

[Godstud]

@late No one is saying not to do anything about the problems. You're being terribly dishonest. You have no argument. Only insults, because you know that you're especially guilty of not doing anything.

[late]

[usermention=41202]

@late[/usermention] No one is saying not to do anything about the problems.

That's a distinction without a difference.

You don't want anything that would work...

[Pants-of-dog]

@Godstud

I will provide you with one last opportunity to provide an example of my fear mongering or calling you a denier.

If you cannot, I will assume you concede that I have done neither of those things.

[Godstud]

You don't want anything that would work...

That's a very false takeaway from what I have said. You and @Steve_American have a problem with making wrong assertions. Have you ever considered somewhat realistic solutions? The three presented by Steve aren't realistic in any possible way, despite some claim that a scientist thought them up.

I am an optimist, but I am also pretty pragmatic about what will actually work, and what will not. I also know that calling people names doesn't win hearts and minds. Fear doesn't, either.

@late I am not against AGW in any way. I have questions, but when I ask those questions, it is seen as denial. I am not trying to politicize AGW, but we have to seek solutions that are within the realm of possibility, and the world is not a uniform entity. When I question you about realistic solutions to AGW, or question scientific "models"(many of whom have not come to pass in the last few decades) I get called a 'denier'.

If you cannot, I will assume you concede that I have done neither of those things.

No. I do not concede that, but I am unwilling to humour you any longer with my time. You wouldn't have any argument with me were you not all about fear-mongering and telling me I am not extreme enough(a "denier").

[Pants-of-dog]

@Godstud

So you are unable to find an example of me fear mongering or calling you a denier and you accept that you are wrong to accuse me of that.

I have no idea what you think is so effective about ignoring my actual claims and trying very hard to be offended.

[Godstud]

@Pants-of-dog I'm not playing your game. What I said is true, but I am not going to waste more time one you. Have a nice day.

[Steve_American]

Steve_American is making up shit as he goes along. I did not mention Covid spending. Strawman fallacy. Grow up.

Godstud is right, he never said the words "covid spending".

What he said was "But seeing as the US is having a lot of inflation, right now,...".

I took that to be a reference to the high inflation now, being THE result of the $5.5T of covid spending. What else could it be a reference to? He was asserting that the spending I'm proposing will cause costs to the American people. Because I'm an MMTer, I know that the US Gov. can deficit spend with the only constraint being inflation. [I explained that the Gov. spent $27T and the $5.5T and the result of the $5.5T was just 0.4 percentage points of inflation, which is no big deal, and he did refute my evidence or the claim.] So, he must be referring to the covid spending that he thinks caused the "inflation, right now ignoring the evidence that it only caused the inflation to be increased (from that caused by other factors) by 0.4 percentage points.."

So, he didn't say "covid spending" but what else could he have been referring to?

IMHO, Godstud is behaving just like other trolls who have crossed swords with late and me on climate change. He just keeps asserting that too much fear will block action and ignored my assertion that the Repub Party is doing just fine ginning up fear of trans people as grooomers. As well as the fear that "the Gov. will take your" guns, etc., etc. The Repub Party seems to get its people to take actions; like vote for Repubs, and make death threats aimed at the targets the party has put in its cross-hairs.

If he doesn't want to be seen as a troll, he should stop acting like one.
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[Pants-of-dog]

@Godstud

Is the claim that sea level rise could easily reach one meter by 2100 fear mongering?

Yes or no?