[Proctor]

Who here believes in the mind or the soul? Do you think that our intelligence is on some kind of higher plane, that there is something greater than our bodies? Or do you think that our intelligence is merely dictated by the locations of electrons?

[the SovieT]

a similar post is alreyd being discussed here... but whatever..

well here are my two cents...

as a materiaist i do not believe in souls, god, or any other "magical" or non material world... the main component of this universe is matter and the only thing that isnt inclued in that plane is our imagination(wich can aso be including since our imagination only works with the phisical aspect of our body but whatever...)

so i would say that heaven, hell, souls etc exist, inside our brain in our very own imagination...
some times we see what we want to see.. taht explains lots of the "supernatural" events...

[Tigerlily]

With factual intelligence, I don't believe it comes from a higer place. It comes from your brain.

One of my old math teachers told me something when I asked him why we had to learn math if I wasn't going to use it as an adult. He said, when you learn something new--especially something challenging like math, your brain "expands" it's knowledge capacity and the circuits in our brain work and make new circuits. Thus it makes us all around "smarter".

Intelligence is "merely dictated by the locations of electrons".

[Proctor]

a similar post is alreyd being discussed here... but whatever..

Really? Where?

As you probably guessed from my post, I think there is a soul. I've never previously taken to the 'astral plane' concept much, but the idea of everything about me, my imagination, my thoughts, my memory, being made up entirely of protons, neutrons and electrons, it just seems...wrong. Which in turn leads me to believe that there must be something greater than our bodies.

Now, I'm going to step away from the philosophical concept for now, and ask, if it were possible to create an exact copy of me, not a clone but an atomic replica, would it be me? Would it think in exactly the way I do, remember everything I remember? Would it even be alive?

Trouble with asking that is, with present technology, there is no evidence for or against. So until a scientist 'creates' a single celled organism...

[Catria]

As you probably guessed from my post, I think there is a soul. I've never previously taken to the 'astral plane' concept much, but the idea of everything about me, my imagination, my thoughts, my memory, being made up entirely of protons, neutrons and electrons, it just seems...wrong. Which in turn leads me to believe that there must be something greater than our bodies.

Sounds like wishful thinking. What's so *wrong* about us not having some magically attached soul? Not having one doesn't demean the wonder of us in any way. The body is largely a sac of grease...but the brain! The brain is a marvel of complex interacting chemicals and wires...I see nothing terrible in this. The mind is still largely an unplummed mystery and still a beautiful concept...how fascinating that different sections control different aspects of us, like emotion and passion or language and mathematics and that they intertwine with each other and the external world and make us what we are.

If the soul is our "true essence" and something seperate to our physical bodies, then why does our personality change when parts of our brain are damaged or drug-altered? You ask if an atomic replica of yourself could be created, would it be you? Well no, it wouldn't be...because what we are appears to be a combination of our genes and our environment. The smallest environmental change can make changes in our brain chemistry and alter us...so we don't need a soul to make us unique.

Apart from being a convenient tool for religious manipulation, I see the whole concept of the soul as just a poets dream...a fanciful vehicle for immortality, born of human imagination and a wish to transcend earthly reality. It's a concept which offers us an escape perhaps, from an imperfect world. But even if some sort of spiritual transcendence after death were true, I still don't see why we would need a soul. If we can be magically zapped to Paradise or whatever, then why do we need something like a soul to do it?

[Boondock Saint]

I think I would echo Catria ...

I don't buy the whole 'soul' concept ... I think it makes for good reading like any other myth.

As for the atomic replica ... well ... I believe nurture has just as much if not more influence on who you are then nature does ... so ... who you are, what you do and why you do it are greatly influenced by who you are surrounded by, who you learn your values from and what kind of opportunities are open to you. Sure some people are born to be bad but ... I think ones environment play a huge role in what people do ... so ... no ... an exact replica wont be you unless it goes through all the life experiences you go through ...

[Proctor]

The brain is a marvel of complex interacting chemicals and wires

This is what worries me. The concept that everything about me is made up of chemicals and wires. It's just not right...

The mind is still largely an unplummed mystery and still a beautiful concept

I know most people don't do this, but I group the mind in with the soul. It seems strange to accept one and dispute the other.

You ask if an atomic replica of yourself could be created, would it be you? Well no, it wouldn't be...because what we are appears to be a combination of our genes and our environment.

Obviously the replica would have the same genes, and it is not impossible to imagine the replica being built in the same enviroment. And as you go on to say, the smallest enviormental changes affect our personalities, so an enviromental change shouldn't affect whether its me or not anyway. They happen to the 'real' me all the time, why should it modify the replica?

Boondock, you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot with that. If you don't believe in the soul, then experience and nurturing will be stored in your brain.

[Catria]

This is what worries me. The concept that everything about me is made up of chemicals and wires. It's just not right...

Why isn't it? Do you think humans are *special*? How would you define a soul? When do we get it..at conception, later, before? Who slips it in...God? Do animals have souls? Do insects, jellyfish...plants? If not, why not?

Obviously the replica would have the same genes, and it is not impossible to imagine the replica being built in the same enviroment.

It is impossible. No two people can live in exactly the same space and have exactly the same environmental influence...it would only take the tiniest change to make a difference.

And as you go on to say, the smallest enviormental changes affect our personalities, so an enviromental change shouldn't affect whether its me or not anyway. They happen to the 'real' me all the time, why should it modify the replica?

I'm not sure what you mean here?? The replica is not "you", so you could not share identical environmental changes in exactly the same way.

[jaakko]

I'll try to sum up the Theory of Knowledge of Dialectical Materialism.

-There's no soul separate from brains.
-No motion without matter, therefore no mind without matter in motion
-No consciousness without matter (brain). However, consciousness is not matter (brain).

do you think that our intelligence is merely dictated by the locations of electrons?

Objective reality reflects through the senses into our brains. That is consciousness. Consciousness is not brains. It's a product of our brains and environment in our brains. Without brains AND senses, there wouldn't be consciousness. Those electrons in our brains can't alone create consciousness.

I myself am constantly amazed of our human mind. That however, has quite a logical explanation. Consciousness is what we use to understand the world. Of course one of the most complex objects of study for our consciousness is the consciousness itself. How could one, using his/her consciousness, rise above one's own consciousness? Rationally, I can understand the very basic laws of consciousness, but in the level of feelings I will always think "how wonderfull" human mind is. The two aspects (explaining consciousness by dialectical materialist philosophy / being amazed by the "wonders" of mind) don't contradict each other.

As you probably guessed from my post, I think there is a soul. I've never previously taken to the 'astral plane' concept much, but the idea of everything about me, my imagination, my thoughts, my memory, being made up entirely of protons, neutrons and electrons, it just seems...wrong.

Well... It is wrong! Your mind is not made up of protons etc., but of their motion which in turn, through senses, is dictated by objective reality. No need for mystical "soul", but neither do we have to resort to such vulgar mechanical materialism, as to say that consciousness was matter. Consciousness is one type of matter's motion. It exists materially, but it isn't matter.

Here's
'MATERIALISM AND EMPIRIO-CRITICISM' by V. I. LENIN

http://www.marx2mao.org/Lenin/MEC08NB.html

Large sections of this books deals with consciousness and the Theory of Knowledge.

[Adrien]

Very good site!

And not only for this particular book, the whole site is very interesting.

[smashthestate]

It's almost pointless to even think about philosophy. The problem is that any theory can be correct. For instance, let's say that I believe there is no afterlife at all, but that we stay conciouss in our bodies, even after we die. We are aware of everything, but none of our nomal bodily functions work, obviously. There is no way to disprove or prove this. And this is true for every single philosophical belief out there. There is no way to prove any of it, so why even think about it?

[Comrade Ogilvy]

My view is this:
I have never talked to a corpse or spirit that told me what happens to us after we are dead so I think any thoughts about what happens to us after death will be based on fear or hope, therefore it is useless thought. I focus on life in the short time I am alive, I'll have an eternity to deal with death after I am dead.

[Sonar]

Not an eternity... a nothing. Your brain stops functioning and your dead carcass will rot and then be burnt by the supernova explosion of our sun. But still... for some strange reason everyone wants to live... life is over rated.... but i think i will have a good time while i am here.

[Al Khabir]

"The idea that I am just mad up of wires and electrons is just...wrong"

This would stem from the human desire to be unique, created by a fear of death. But lets look at it logically... "you", as in the personality or "the self" is made up entirley of words- everything that we express is through language. Strip this away and the human loses individuality, and becomes a creature that consists solely of instincts and desires. This is not a rational human like ourselves- it is, in essence an animal. This was the primary state of the Human race- we advanced above other animals because of a larger brain capacity. Therefoer the self can be traced back to the existence of superior grey matter, not to any special treatment by any god or the existence of a soul exclusive to humanity.

So perhaps what we should be asking is "do all creatures have a soul?" as oppose to "do I have a soul?"

[Buck Williams]

I myself belive in the soul. All that chaos crap doesn't work for me. Millions of randomly assorted cells somehow formed together into a human being? No. Too random. It is true we are made of millions of cells. however, I belive that is only our human body. Your immortal soul is the true you.

About intelligence, I think that everyone has the capabilities (except possibly metnally handicaped people) to be as itelligent as anyone else. Genius is not inherited.

[smashthestate]

Out of the billions and billions of species on Earth, the Human is the only one that is very easily identifiable as fundamentally different. I don't believe this is coincidence.

I believe that every human has a soul.

[Al Khabir]

...That is of course unless you count the different breeds that we class as human but bear little resemblance to us such as the Neanderthalls. The reason humans are unique on teh earth is that 1. there is only room enough for one dominant species on a planet. 2. evolution is a slow process, and so slow that it is unlikely that two similar species would evolve simoultaniously to each other.

Why are cells coming together to form the human consciousness unlikely? when you consider logically that all we are is a bag of sensations and impressions of an outer world, and a rationalisation organ that allows us to learn what is hot or cold, what is safe to eat and what is poisonous. All animals have these capacities, it just happens that ours are superior.

Put this together and you have a bueatiful thing, but a completely logical and rational construct. We exist, but not for any special purpose.

To assume that we possess a soul is to acknowledge that we have a special purpose to exist and from this is created Fideism.