[JoeBruno]

One Party state, benvolent Dictator, controlled economy (state-capitalism), orwellian surveillence and censorship, prisons for minorities, desire to create a superhuman, exchagerated territorial claims, millitarisation

China changed from Maoism in pure Musolini Fascism

China has a Capitalist market economy but it is rigidly controlled by the Communist Party. There is no democracy at all. The CCP brutally suppresses dissent and even practices racism.

[noemon]

lol whut?

It's "Communist" party by the way.

The funny part is that Fasces made the exact same argument, over and over again.

"China is not fascist because she is ruled by a Communist party and communist parties have communist ideologies."

The good part is that Fasces at the very least recognized that as far as Chinese state actions go(praxis), China is objectively Fascist.

He then proceeded to claim that state actions do not define a state, but rather its nominal ideological claims do.

So you can be a nominal democracy(for the record China is a nominal dictatorship, constitutionally defined as such), treat your citizens and corporations like a fascist but still claim that you are a democracy.

For those who do not understand what fascism is:

Fascism is the ideology that all organizations and atoms inside a country, be it religious groups, or businesses or non-profits, or institutes must serve the state and be directed by the state.

As Mussolini put it: "Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State".

This is called corporatism and as we discussed earlier mild corporatist policies can be implemented to a certain degree even by democratic states without them becoming fascist. That is especially the case during total war when the entire machinery of the economy is put to collective use under the direction of the state.

But what is it meant by 'mild corporatist policies'?

Giving out subsidies for an important national core industry, like energy or telecoms, or green projects. The state supporting industries it considers vital but without making them state-controlled enterprises.

And what is it meant by non-mild corporatist policies: Controlling the industries directly by the state and applying this level of control across the board as a matter of state policy.

In the case of China, her corporatist policies are neither mild nor temporary injections of state support, they are totalitarian.

These 2 characteristics of being a dictatorship and applying full corporatist policies make a state Fascist.

Usually, states like that also tend to be racist, totalitarian, orthodox(as in intolerant of heterodox views) as a consequence of applying total dictatorial corporatism. These things tend to happen as a result as they do in China for years, however a racist country is not fascist unless she applies dictatorial corporatism.

[Fasces]

Actions are not ideological. Building a road is not inherently fascist, communist, or liberal. The intent that motivates action is ideology.

China is not fascist because it does not believe or perpetuate a fascist ideology. You can say that China acts like a fascist, but then so do you - you breathe air, just as fascists did. You eat, just as fascists did. You benefit from the use of state force, as fascists did. It's an utterly pointless exercise, motivated only to prejudice opinion through the use of evocative shorthand.

[noemon]

Actions are not ideological. Building a road is not inherently fascist, communist, or liberal. The intent that motivates action is ideology.

China is not fascist because it does not believe or perpetuate a fascist ideology. You can say that China acts like a fascist, but then so do you - you breathe air, just as fascists did. You eat, just as fascists did. You benefit from the use of state force, as fascists did. It's an utterly pointless exercise, motivated only to prejudice opinion through the use of evocative shorthand.

Nobody claimed that China is fascist because Chinese people breathe air or build roads. This is like the poorest strawman you can come up with after your previous anti-communist one. That for a fascist to be a fascist they need to hate the commies, otherwise no.

Of course, that is not true at all, as you eventually conceeded because a fascist is so regardless if they hate communism or not. Just like a communist is so regardless if they hate fascists.

Fascism is the ideology that all organizations and atoms inside a country, be it religious groups, or businesses or non-profits, or institutes must serve the state and be directed by the state.

As Mussolini put it: "Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State".

This is called corporatism and as we discussed earlier mild corporatist policies can be implemented to a certain degree even by democratic states without them becoming fascist. That is especially the case during total war when the entire machinery of the economy is put to collective use under the direction of the state.

But what is it meant by 'mild corporatist policies'?

Giving out subsidies for an important national core industry, like energy or telecoms, or green projects. The state supporting industries it considers vital but without making them state-controlled enterprises.

And what is it meant by non-mild corporatist policies: Controlling the industries directly by the state and applying this level of control across the board as a matter of state policy.

In the case of China, her corporatist policies are neither mild nor temporary injections of state support, they are totalitarian.

These 2 characteristics of being a dictatorship and applying full corporatist policies make a state fascist.

Usually, states like that also tend to be racist, totalitarian, orthodox(as in intolerant of heterodox views) as a consequence of applying total dictatorial corporatism. These things tend to happen as a result as they do in China for years, however a racist country is not fascist unless she applies dictatorial corporatism.

[Fasces]

Put simply, the Chinese state does not control a thing in China. The Chinese state has no military. The Chinese state does not own any enterprises or firms. The Chinese state is not totalitarian, and the goal of the Chinese state remains to be its own abolition.

This may be a distinction without a difference to you, and honestly it's pedantic as the state is wholly subordinate to the entity which does control things, but it's clear you're working backward from your conclusion - it's why you're confused about what China aspires to be, and why your predictions over Chinese actions and decisions have been and will always be consistently incorrect.

[noemon]

It would be nice if you actually made any sense instead of simply putting words together in a desperate attempt to have the last word, good thing that you admit that what you are doing is pedantic.

I am satisfied that you have already conceeded that Chinese Praxis is Fascist.

[Fasces]

It'd be nice if you cared more about understanding your "enemy" than trying to use plithy slurs to justify an empty conviction.

[noemon]

What is that I am missing about Chinese fascism?

It'd be nice if you cared more about understanding your "enemy" than trying to use plithy slurs to justify an empty conviction.

Accusing me of hating China because you lost the argument is yet another straw-man that you have used several times to insult me and then whine if I do or say something about it.

Please have some decency towards your own "opponent" before you accuse others of irrational hatred for making statements of fact.

You are projecting and it's transparent.

Do not abuse my personality nor make insulting comments about me.

If you are capable to address my arguments on the subject of Chinese fascism, please do that, but do not insult me again as I am not insulting you.

[Fasces]

You can repeatedly state "you lost the debate" as much as you want to me and others, but it doesn't make it true. What is evident is your total lack of knowledge over the ideals the CPC profess - which makes you similarly misunderstand their motivations, priorities, and objectives. Absent any of this, you will never be able to predict why or what China will do. It's why your convictions are empty. They're not based in anything real, just prejudice.

You can satisfy yourself that my words are just empty and blind expressions of uncritical support for the PRC, but this isn't true. I'm perfectly willing to have a critical discussion of China's failings. As long as they're based in fact.

"China is fascist" is neither critical (it presumes "and fascism is bad" without doing any of the involved legwork, for one, that's what makes it an empty sentiment) or based in reality (China isn't fascist).

[noemon]

You can repeatedly state "you lost the debate" as much as you want to me and others, but it doesn't make it true. What is evident is your total lack of knowledge over the ideals the CPC profess - which makes you similarly misunderstand their motivations, priorities, and objectives. Absent any of this, you will never be able to predict why or what China will do. It's why your convictions are empty. They're not based in anything real, just prejudice.

I kindly asked you not to insult me again. Evidently, you are incapable to discuss a political topic without accusing me of prejudice which is really a polite way of calling me a racist. This is not about me or you.

You have already conceded that Chinese praxis is Fascist and you are refusing to address my arguments preferring instead to attack me with empty slurs and insults. This is becoming a spectacle, especially when you are projecting that I am using "slurs" somehow.

You can satisfy yourself that my words are just empty and blind expressions of uncritical support for the PRC, but this isn't true.

I do not need to assert anything about you. In case you haven't noticed, you are not the subject here! Though kudos for the attempt to insult yourself on my behalf. I guess you figured that if I do not insult you, then you will insult yourself on my behalf in order to attempt to lower me to your level.

Please have some decency, if not for me but at least for the topic.

"China is fascist" is neither critical (it presumes "and fascism is bad" without doing any of the involved legwork, for one, that's what makes it an empty sentiment) or based in reality (China isn't fascist).

There is no presumption on my behalf that fascism is "bad".

Fascism is a system of government, systems of government are not inherently bad or good.

Fascism is the system of government practiced(praxis) by the Chinese state as you have already conceded.

For those who do not understand what fascism is:

Fascism is the ideology that all organizations and atoms inside a country, be it religious groups, or businesses or non-profits, or institutes must serve the state and be directed by the state.

As Mussolini put it: "Everything in the State, nothing outside the State, nothing against the State".

This is called corporatism and as we discussed earlier mild corporatist policies can be implemented to a certain degree even by democratic states without them becoming fascist. That is especially the case during total war when the entire machinery of the economy is put to collective use under the direction of the state.

But what is it meant by 'mild corporatist policies'?

Giving out subsidies for an important national core industry, like energy or telecoms, or green projects. The state supporting industries it considers vital but without making them state-controlled enterprises.

And what is it meant by non-mild corporatist policies: Controlling the industries directly by the state and applying this level of control across the board as a matter of state policy.

In the case of China, her corporatist policies are neither mild nor temporary injections of state support, they are totalitarian.

These 2 characteristics of being a dictatorship and applying full corporatist policies make a state Fascist.

[Fasces]

I kindly asked you not to insult me again. Evidently, you are unable to discuss a political topic without accusing me of prejudice which is really a polite way of calling me racist. This is not about me or you.

I did not call you racist. If I thought you were racist, I would call you racist.

There is no presumption on my behalf that fascism is "bad".

There is no presumption on my behalf that prejudiced means racism. It doesn't, by the way (I think you're prejudiced against the PRC, not Chinese people) - but I'm glad we're both able to accept that words have implicit meanings to an audience. Words like fascism.

Fascism is the system of government practiced(praxis) by the Chinese state as you have already conceeded for the reason already mentioned:

And as I said - the Chinese state is a limpless organization with no army and no ability to itself guide corporations. This is true. China has no army. There are zero SEOs.

They're all governed by the party. The Communist Party of China is not a state. It has captured a state, sure, but it isn't a state.

Would love to discuss why you think the Chinese communists did this, and why do they work to maintain this distinction - it'd get closer to the truth of their beliefs and plan for the future than this entire thread ever did.

[Patrickov]

There is no presumption on my behalf that fascism is "bad".

Fascism is a system of government, systems of government are not inherently bad or good.

Admittedly when I first saw this statement I was on the verge of thinking you were telling a lie, as advocates of democracy and freedom must mean they believe Fascism is bad for them.

But thinking it further, I might have started to get your point: There might be people who do deserve and / or accept Fascism and it's good for them.

The problem is when they market it to places where people don't deserve and don't accept Fascism.

Democracy, on the other hand, causes no more actual harm to the advertised when they reject it. (If the advertisers do follow the belief of democracy that is)

[Fasces]

Look how quickly the pro colonizer rationalizes support for fascism.

[Patrickov]

Look how quickly the pro colonizer rationalizes support for fascism.

仆街, you take my words out of context.

I still oppose that statement but I get the point and cannot say his statement actually contradicts his belief.

I still think Fascism is bad for me and my fellow Hongkongers, and China and the likes of you are in the wrong by forcing this on us.

Although I do agree that the likes of you deserve on the receiving end of it.

[Patrickov]

And as I said - the Chinese state is a limpless organization with no army and no ability to itself guide corporations. This is true. China has no army. There are zero SEOs.

They're all governed by the party. The Communist Party of China is not a state. It has captured a state, sure, but it isn't a state.

Would love to discuss why you think the Chinese communists did this, and why do they work to maintain this distinction - it'd get closer to the truth of their beliefs and plan for the future than this entire thread ever did.

Many people, pro-China / CCP or the opposite, often accuse others of mixing up China and CCP. What I want to point out is that, at least in some areas of discussion, there is no reason to distinguish the two.

For example, the statement "China is a Fascist State" is effectively equivalent to "China is currently run by an organization which employs Fascism".

This clarification will render most if not all of the above quoted statement moot.

[noemon]

I did not call you racist. If I thought you were racist, I would call you racist.

There is no presumption on my behalf that prejudiced means racism. It doesn't, by the way (I think you're prejudiced against the PRC, not Chinese people) - but I'm glad we're both able to accept that words have implicit meanings to an audience. Words like fascism.

I explained with evidence and argument why the praxis of the Chinese state is fascist. You have not explained either why you think my arguments are wrong or why you accuse me of prejudice and bias against the Chinese state. Your insults against me are empty.

My description of the practices of the Chinese state as fascist is something that you have already agreed to.

And as I said - the Chinese state is a limpless organization with no army and no ability to itself guide corporations. This is true. China has no army. There are zero SEOs.

They're all governed by the party. The Communist Party of China is not a state. It has captured a state, sure, but it isn't a state.

Would love to discuss why you think the Chinese communists did this, and why do they work to maintain this distinction - it'd get closer to the truth of their beliefs and plan for the future than this entire thread ever did.

Mmkay, so the dictatorship defined in the Chinese constitution is not the Chinese state.

Admittedly when I first saw this statement I was on the verge of thinking you were telling a lie, as advocates of democracy and freedom must mean they believe Fascism is bad for them.

But thinking it further, I might have started to get your point: There might be people who do deserve and / or accept Fascism and it's good for them.

The problem is when they market it to places where people don't deserve and don't accept Fascism.

Democracy, on the other hand, causes no more actual harm to the advertised when they reject it. (If the advertisers do follow the belief of democracy that is)

Well said. Democracy can be said to cause various ills and some people could argue that fascism enables longevity, cohesion and overheating. This is not however a topic of fascism vs democracy and their goods and ills.

It is purely a topic on whether China practices Fascism as a form of government without necessarily making any value judgements about it.

And she does. It is very obvious to a political/economics scientist.

[Fasces]

My description of the practices of the Chinese state as fascist is something that you have already agreed to.

I, quite explicitly, said that actions cannot have an ideological character by themselves. A fascist drink of water is a drink of water by a fascist. The CPC isn't fascist.

Mmkay, so the dictatorship defined in the Chinese constitution is not the Chinese state.

Have you ever read the Chinese state constitution?

The Chinese state has no military. It has no state owned enterprises. Why do you think this is? What is the Communist Party of China saying?

[noemon]

Article 1. The People's Republic of China is a socialist state under the people's democratic dictatorship led by the working class and based on the alliance of workers and peasants.

So once again to deny that the Chinese state is fascist, you are saying that only the CCP, the organ of the state, as defined by the Chinese constitution, practices fascism in China, but not the state itself.

Mmkay.

[Fasces]

Yes, good - what is meant by the word "peoples democratic dictatorship"?

[Patrickov]

Yes, good - what is meant by the word "peoples democratic dictatorship"?

It's a lie to hide the fact that they are in fact Fascist.