[Tribbles]

Happy new year!

I think this manifesto thing will be kind of like a relay race. Some people pick it up and do something, run a bit, leave it - and then somebody else picks it up and run with it for a while, perhaps with minor changes done along the way.

Food for thought: The thing about universal health-care was actually added by a American. Probably to separate fascism from the tea-party liberalists.

[starman2003]

I disagree - individuality should be preserved. If fascism works, there is no need to indoctrinate.

But any kind of serious authoritarian statism is fundamentally unpopular because it is sacrificial. The individual is deemphasized; he's secondary to the Whole, and must be indoctrinated to accept what he ordinarily wouldn't.

OK, I agree - embrace science - evolutionary perspective and atheism if done with benevolence.

Evolutionary and human history weren't all that benevolent, and great achievement often requires ruthlessness..

I disagree - religion should be relegated to a dusty shelf in a book of history.

Couldn't agree more.

[CounterChaos]

But any kind of serious authoritarian statism is fundamentally unpopular because it is sacrificial. The individual is deemphasized; he's secondary to the Whole, and must be indoctrinated to accept what he ordinarily wouldn't.

Germans didn't think it was unpopular. You are in a position of an outsider looking in - from a perspective that has been polluted to the negative by propaganda. Imagine yourself an insider looking out..... Actions speak for themselves.

As I said before, if we were to adopt a Resource Based Economy under a program like the Venus Project - everything would be provided to the individual. Mandatory military service for 2 to 4 years is all that is needed. The military "exclusively" would be the fascist authority and in charge of all distribution. Actions speak louder than words. After two to four years mandatory service, the military would retain long term all the warm bodies it desired, in the form of those that understood and espouse the military fascist system and desired that for their future. Call it patriotism. This patriotism would then spill over into civilian society.

Evolutionary and human history weren't all that benevolent, and great achievement often requires ruthlessness..

.........we have learned from our history, have we not? There is two types of leadership - authoritarian and democratic. You cannot be one or the other - you have to be both - depending entirely upon the situation at hand.

[starman2003]

Germans didn't think it was unpopular.

Some opposed it, and you got to take into consideration the brevity of the reich. Soviet citizens were initially enthusiastic, which aided rapid industrialization but the endless sacrifice for little material gain ultimately "got to them."

You are in a position of an outsider looking in - from a perspective that has been polluted to the negative by propaganda.

Why do you think there was a gestapo and NKVD--the inherent unpopularity of a sacrificial, hierarchical system meant they were needed for regime survival.

[Tribbles]

Question to Starman: If you don't believe it is possible to make it work, why are you a authoritarian? All your postings seem like arguments against authoritarianism of any kind.

[Far-Right Sage]

Why do you think there was a gestapo and NKVD--the inherent unpopularity of a sacrificial, hierarchical system meant they were needed for regime survival.

No society will ever form a 100% consensus. There will always be those inherently given to defiance and contradicting authority, those who develop ideas contrary to the interests of their state (particularly with the existence of cellular telephones and the internet, which didn't exist during the time of the Axis and the height of the Soviet Union), and those whose family members and family trend toward a criminal path which alienate them from the state. This creates a host of issues. You will always need a Gestapo, an NKVD, a Securitate, a Praetorian Guard. It doesn't speak to the popularity or lack thereof of any ruling regime.

[starman2003]

Question to Starman: If you don't believe it is possible to make it work, why are you a authoritarian? All your postings seem like arguments against authoritarianism of any kind.

Hell no, authoritarian states such as the reich and USSR, have obviously worked well and accomplished great things in their heydays, through imposition of sacrifice and other unpopular measures, even though they had to rely on coercion to a considerable degree. I don't have a problem with the latter and don't equate it with "unworkability."

[Tribbles]

It could off course be, that the Soviet Union collapsed because too many people disliked it? All those folks pouring out of DDR?

But at the same time: The DDR didn't close the Berlin-boarder before 1961, and it could have happened with any nations - even if none of them were communist - that got into the unfortunate situation of splitting a major city between them. And in a book I am currently reading on the wall (That is why it pops into this discussion) says that people from west-Germany went to East-Germany to buy cheap stuff. The DDR government didn't like that. Since it was a socialist country, the goods produced and sold did not give extra profit due to more buyers, so it was very bad for them that the West-Germans did their shopping at the socialist side of Berlin. - It would just make more work for the DDR-citizens without any real benefits, except west-german currency that was... But perhaps they didn't need it? Hm hm.

Its a big discussion - but I tend to get angry at people who refuse to choose economic systems, but just eat the authoritarian apple. It seems a bit shallow, but at the other end, I am not my self among the most enraged anti-communists.... So..... Confusing?

Anyway, new manifesto to the collection:
http://efp.org.uk/manifesto/brief-manifesto/

I like the look of that site, it is good to see that there are real far-righters at work in England.

[starman2003]

It could off course be, that the Soviet Union collapsed because too many people disliked it?

Because its own leaders despaired of the system and threw in the towel. It may be true that socialism doesn't work. But authoritarianism does. The best solution would've been the approach taken by China--economic reform while maintaining the authoritarian political order.

Anyway, new manifesto to the collection:

Interesting but a bit archaic.

[Tribbles]

The best solution would've been the approach taken by China--economic reform while maintaining the authoritarian political order.

Whoho! We agree! It is a miracle! So if it was up to you, you would choose, you WOULD prefer an authoritarian center or center-right government over a communist one.

Interesting but a bit archaic.

Everything seems archaic to you.

[starman2003]

So if it was up to you, you would choose, you WOULD prefer an authoritarian centre or center-right government over a communist one.

Of course. I don't relate to an ideology that favors the proletariat.

Everything seems archaic to you.

It's a shame to see bright people at the dawn of a new millennium and a new space/cyber age still clinging to failed 20th century ideologies of one kind or other. Of course what I favor resembles 20th century fascism but I don't like that name and the agenda should be more futurist and visionary.

[Social_Critic]

Authoritarianism doesn't work because it usually degenerates into hereditary authoritarianism, and the heirs eventually turn out to be hedonistic madmen, or just plain dumb. Check out Caligula, Kim Jong Il, and French King Louis XV.

[starman2003]

Authoritarianism doesn't work because it usually degenerates into hereditary authoritarianism, and the heirs eventually turn out to be hedonistic madmen, or just plain dumb. Check out Caligula, Kim Jong Il, and French King Louis XV.

The solution is to prevent such a degeneration, not abandon authoritarianism; often the latter arise because democracy screws up. The ultimate solution may be to clone the best leader known.

[Tribbles]

The solution is to prevent such a degeneration, not abandon authoritarianism; often the latter arise because democracy screws up. The ultimate solution may be to clone the best leader known.

Perhaps we can draw inspiration from the Klingons: ?

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Kahless_%28clone%29

[starman2003]

Perhaps we can draw inspiration from the Klingons: ?

I have little doubt that someday, probably within this century, some technology or other will provide a lasting solution.