What if Fascist Italy had turned? - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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The non-democratic state: Platonism, Fascism, Theocracy, Monarchy etc.
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By Figlio di Moros
#13565320
Considering the inevitability of a war between Germany and Russia, would it have made much sense to give them complete control over the middle east?
By Benjamin Noyles
#13565407
fuser wrote:that post...

I apologise but what the hell was that?
You know what you could have posted instead of that?
flibibibibibibibibibibibioooooooooolololoolololollool dicksdicksdicksdicksdicksdicks [alpha numeric goatsee .jpg]
because that is the intellectual equivilant of what I got.

We call this taking piss. Why can't you people just answer my questions, why do you have to run circles and play dumb?

How is it possible to get it that wrong? It is like you didn't read a single post.
I mean if you just didn't care why even respond?




Can somebody please explain this phenomenon
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By starman2003
#13566127
Assuming it was inevitable, Russia already had plenty of oil, and by helping to knock out Britain it might've made things easier for the reich later. Besides spreading Russia's troops out more thinly, away from the nazi path of egress. :)
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By Figlio di Moros
#13566441
Except the new sources of oil would've improved their economy and military power. Remember, conquest of Russia was his ultimate goal.
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By starman2003
#13567040
But Russia already had more than enough; IIRC it exported oil, as well as grain and fodder to the reich as part of the economic deal of 1939-40. Had the soviets attempted to take most or all of the areas they claimed as their sphere in late 1940 (as part of a potential deal with the axis) it would've tied down quite a few soviet troops far away from the high road to Moscow. That would've been in addition to substantial forces in siberia. So again, despite the magnitude of soviet expansion under the hypothetical deal, it might still have worked in the reich's favor.
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By fuser
#13575012
Now that is a contribution from your part benjamin :lol:

Nice intellectual post, enjoy yourself....... :roll:
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By fuser
#13575017
Yes. Please prove that the Soviet Union and Italy had a negative relationship


C'mon now do I have to post about anti - comintern pact too..........
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By Far-Right Sage
#13629494
I'm aware of the stigma surrounding the revival of these older threads, but I couldn't resist a comment.

The amount of discussion that surrounds the "What if Hitler forged an alliance with Moscow?" or "What if Germany did not invade the Soviet Union?" questions is very curious indeed.

Responses along the line of "Germany would have had the war in its pocket" seem to be so fundamentally off-target in their reasoning. The end goal of the NSDAP was always the liquidation of Marxism in all its physical and political forms in Europe (particularly Eastern Europe) to pave the way for the eventual German ideological, territorial, and physical expansion into those areas. That was the war. To discuss what Germany could have achieved without confronting the Soviet Union at some point in time is to miss the entire point of why the war was fought to begin with. Germany was strangled by a Eurocentric world that no longer served her interests and operated at the behest of Germany's enemies. The war was the last gasp for air.
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By starman2003
#13629651
Sure but it was still unwise to attack the USSR without first finishing Britain. To do that, the reich could've used russia. Late in 1940, Berlin could've agreed to Stalin's demand for Finland and the middle east (as the price for entering the war on the side of the axis). That probably would've accomplished the vital interim goal of forcing britain to give up. How could Churchill or his policies have continued if Russia was added to britain's enemies and it lost the middle east--probably India too? And as I suggested earlier, soviet expansion might've actually helped the reich later overcome russia, by spreading soviet forces far and wide.
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By telluro
#13630067
Not being too familiar with the proposal in question, I'll say that it would depend when Italy would have proposed an armistice. Both cases spell doom for Italian Fascism as such. If Italy were to propose armistice before the USA entered the war, it would have been accepted, and then Italy would have been at the mercy of Germany who would have probably made a National Socialist puppet out of it. If Italy were to propose armistice after the USA entered the war, it wouldn't have been accepted - the US was hellbent on conquering and democratizing Europe for one final time.

The same applies to Germany's "what if" proposal, since a number of German military officers had been asking Hitler to seek peace with the Allies in order for both to focus on the stampeding Soviet army. The most serious military coup against Hitler occured on this pretext: that with Hitler out of the way, an armistice would be offered to the Allies, led by the US at this point, and focus on the Eastern Front, where the sole intent for both the armistice and the war with Russia would be to save Germany from conquest. They lost but they also needn't have bothered - the US would have ignored all calls for armistice after D-day.
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By Far-Right Sage
#13630804
Sure but it was still unwise to attack the USSR without first finishing Britain. To do that, the reich could've used russia.


A timely military defeat of the United Kingdom was not likely as Germany could not accomplish this with the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine, and as far as the Soviet Union relates to the question of a British defeat, the act of empowering Stalin's regime and aiding Soviet expansion to the end being a surrender by the British and her Commonwealth, it's rather a case of cutting off one's nose to spite his face. England was entirely incapable of defeating Germany military without Soviet and U.S. intervention. World War II was the last great war of empires because it destroyed Britain and France's, and they essentially both lost something far greater than what was in their war aims the moment the world's "greatest empire" had to retreat to her home island and Paris was conquered.

It's not a question of finishing off Britain, but of creating a situation that would be so untenable and unforgiving for the British that the UK would pull out of the war. And more thought was put into this end than any real pragmatic plan to defeat and occupy the United Kingdom.

Late in 1940, Berlin could've agreed to Stalin's demand for Finland and the middle east (as the price for entering the war on the side of the axis).


Stalin probably had the foresight to understand that the Soviet Union would not need German consent to break into the Middle East. The Soviet Union and the UK were able to invade and conquer Iran as early as 1941, when the Russians were getting hammered. A Soviet-Western Allies alliance was inevitable as a resurgent Germany was an obstacle to A)Soviet domination of Eastern Europe and proliferation of Stalinism, and B) British domination of the continent. This is why Stalin offered an alliance to Britain and France long before Operation Barbarossa, but was rebuffed for fear of the spread of Communism in the Western democracies and desire to use Hitler as a buffer and even a potential proxy in a future conflict with the Soviets.

And the betrayal of Finland would have simply rendered it unable to act and assist the Axis in any meaningful way in a future, inevitable conflict, just as Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania were.

The point is that folks often quibble over the timing of Operation Barbarossa, but I don't care if it was put off until 1945; it was a massive undertaking, and to try it at any point with a Soviet Union that would now be directly occupying Finland and all of Britain's Middle Easstern colonies and territories would be foolhardy at best, suicidal at worst. Resources were a persistent problem. And once the Soviets in their emboldened position (in this alternate scenario) captured the Romanian oilfields, it would be grim indeed.

That probably would've accomplished the vital interim goal of forcing britain to give up. How could Churchill or his policies have continued if Russia was added to britain's enemies and it lost the middle east--probably India too? And as I suggested earlier, soviet expansion might've actually helped the reich later overcome russia, by spreading soviet forces far and wide.


The failure to capture British India was a lost opportunity, but the Russians had been vying for Britain's crown jewel throughout the Great Game, and Kaiser Wilhelm II had made similar efforts throughout the Great War. The best bet here would have been a Japanese invasion coordinated with a joint German/Japanese backed uprising by Subhas Chandre Bose, but there are too many reasons to list why this ended up falling apart.

Germany's plans weren't actually as nearsighted as later historians have made them appear. The primary issue was a serious lack of cooperation from her Axis partners.
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By starman2003
#13630859
Sure, Britain couldn't beat Germany by itself but the reich still should've ended the war with Britain before taking on russia. If britain could be forced out of the war, that would've prevented American intervention. The reich had already taken steps to secure romanian oil when Stalin demanded finland and the middle east as the price of entering the war on the axis side. Taking the mideast wouldn't have strengthened russia all that much--it already had enough oil--and it would've spread soviet troops out away from the nazi path of egress.
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By Far-Right Sage
#13630873
Sure, Britain couldn't beat Germany by itself but the reich still should've ended the war with Britain before taking on russia. If britain could be forced out of the war, that would've prevented American intervention.


I'm not sure what would lead one to this conclusion. With the Pacific War already brewing and the inevitability of a merging global conflict, I see this as highly unlikely. Germany decided for political reasons to tie herself (diplomatically) to the actions of Japan in the Pacific. The French defeat in 1940 and the fall of Paris diminished the America First movement toward isolationism, not emboldened it. The eventual strike at Pearl Harbor and the desire to prevent an occupied Britain would have been the excuses used by FDR's administration to intervene militarily against the Tripartite powers, regardless of the fact that Germany and Italy had little to do with the U.S.' colonial struggle in the Pacific with Japan.

This would have been the outcome regardless of Hitler and Mussolini's declaration of war on the U.S. Those declarations were pre-emptive.

I say this as a strong proponent of U.S. neutrality during WWII.
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By starman2003
#13631942
Japan struck at Pearl Harbor because of the US oil embargo. What if russia had joined the axis in 1940-41 and taken mideast oil? That would've done more than topple churchill. Although the USSR and Japan had just fought at khalkin gol, if Russia had joined the axis, that would've changed things. Russia didn't need mideast oil and could've been pressured by its axis partners to give/sell some to Japan, well before december 7. Or November 25, when the task force sailed. :)

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