Would you live in a fascist state? - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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The non-democratic state: Platonism, Fascism, Theocracy, Monarchy etc.
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#14754363
Oxymandias wrote:@blackjack21 I am rather confused, are the ideals you presented not you ideals at all? My main source of confusion is that you more you think homosexuals and women see differently from straight men. Is this from the ideological perspective of a fascist or are they extremist interpretations of your political views? And if so, what are your political views?

Well let's face it... I'm bourgeois. So there's a lot that I probably wouldn't do unless I decided I'm dictator for life and SHOULD implement things differently. I don't see that happening. So I just threw in with a thought experiment.

I don't see women as inherently evil. I'm just old school. So I see them as histrionic in a lot of respects. They're inherently valuable for fashion, ergonomics, etc. You can get some brass balled women that can run a country well like Margaret Thatcher, but they are the exception. You more often get some tragic figure like Angela Merkel who will give rise to the next Hitler while purporting to despise fascism with hopelessly naive and deeply misguided policies. You get some good scientists like Marie Curie or Ada Lovelace, but they are also much more often the exception than the rule. I don't think naked oppression is a great idea, but I think discouraging people from taking on roles they're not likely to be good at is reasonable.

Homosexuals I see in a darker light. In my view, homosexuals are critical of the larger society because they inherently do not fit in. Historically, they were the clergy--monks, nuns, priests--that made heterosexuality seem somehow unnatural, given to lust, etc. Sexual liberation from homosexual interpretations of heterosexuality isn't an inherently bad thing, but to replace it with banal hedonism is tragic in my opinion. Homosexuals are often society's critics, precisely because they never quite fit in. Like women, they can play a valuable role. However, unlike women, homosexuals and people with abnormal sexuality are often hostile to normal people precisely because they are intrinsically misfits.

I would think fascism would be inherently male-dominant. I know there are proponents of the idea that are not sympathetic to that view. Our erstwhile lesbian poster, Rei Murasame, comes to mind. While I found her views quite refreshing for their novelty, I also thought they were utterly impractical. She could not see Brexit or Donald Trump coming at all. As a fascist, she couldn't quite get Pegida, AfD, the Front Nationale, and so forth, because she was fixated on the enemies she wanted to destroy and so was more likely to throw in with Jeb Bush and Angela Merkel. That's kind of a good example, because she was anything but stupid, but she was clearly blinkered and unable to see what was on the way. People that support Merkel similarly don't see that they are giving rise to the next Hitler.

That said, I do think that the liberal-mindedness of the political left is based on humans adapted agricultural societies, whereas more authoritarian types like myself are more adapted to hunter-gatherer societies that ultimately preyed on agricultural peoples. We became their muscle so to speak. People who embrace that kind of cooperative thinking are always bested by the militant-minded. When you look at how pathetic Obama is now, limping out of office with the fall of Aleppo, hundreds of thousands of people dead, millions displaced, etc., you can see how the cooperative agricultural mind is blind-sided by the highly competitive hunter-gatherer mind. Obama was no match for Putin or Assad, even with the backing of a superpower military. It's comical to listen to him complain of Russian intereference when his big threat to Russia on hacking was, "cut it out." I still don't see why he can't just come out of the closet. We all know he's gay.

As for the media, I do think one tragedy of modern capitalism is the loss of a high culture. Where is our Shakespeare, Mozart or Da Vinci? Heck, even the low culture of the 1960s and 1970s was better. We can go from the Beatles to Taylor Swift or from Miles Davis to JayZ. Nobody bats an eye, but it is clearly inferior in every way.
#14754393
Pants-of-dog wrote:Then that suggests that fascism provides little or no benefit for the individual.


Having and raising children provide little or no benefit for the individual, but people do it because they realize they are not the center of the universe. I would honestly be concerned about any parent who want into it thinking "what's in it for me?".
#14754402
@blackjack21 I don't know what a bourgeois is. It could happen given the right circumstances. For example that catastrophic event I talked about. If we take your later analogy, hunter scavengers thrive in a hunter scavenger environment and in this scenario and based on what you said, you could very well become a political figure in that situation given you have enough ambition and charisma. However I do agree a fascist state would be make dominant given fascism's nature. I don't know who any of those people are.

I consider myself a mix of both a hunter gather and an agriculture person. I certainly favor diplomacy however if I could see from a long way that diplomacy is insufficient a solution then I will use the force. I don't attack until provoked or unless there is an unavoidable benefit to attack or participate in a war be it to gain certain allies or to gain a certain resource. Obama is gay? How is he gay?

Because there is a lack of individuality and creativity. People all follow other people's opinion because society as a whole favors a certain mindset and vision. Note how there are no more manifestos advocating for change bringing new ideas to the table. There is a lack of understanding of other ideas and no flow of new ideas. People today ironically hate new ideas and hate change. I don't think everything should change but we should still at least understand the ideas people present. In the middle east, everyone hates each other, everyone can't understand each other, no one wants to understand each other, no one wants to doubt themselves, only they are right no one else is. It's ridiculous.
#14754423
@Saeko To some, having children makes them happy or they simply like children. People don't have children because they need to populate the world, they do it due to the non-materialistic gains children give them.


Sorry, you are wrong. I am sure the major reason for having children is due to an excess of alcohol.
#14754427
Saeko wrote:Having and raising children provide little or no benefit for the individual, but people do it because they realize they are not the center of the universe. I would honestly be concerned about any parent who want into it thinking "what's in it for me?".


Having and raising children is probably the single most wonderful thing that has ever happened to me.

While I completely agree that it is a large sacrifice for the individual, it is also of great benefit to the individual as well. We have evolved to want to do this. Not even our instinct for self preservation is as strong as the procreative drive. Parents definitely benefit from having kids.

I highly doubt that fascism provides a similar reward.
#14754439
Having children does create a lot of happy moments for most people. I would say it takes all of your emotions to a level you did not realize existed before. You feel a little more alive and connected to the world.
#14754441
Pants-of-dog wrote:Having and raising children is probably the single most wonderful thing that has ever happened to me.

While I completely agree that it is a large sacrifice for the individual, it is also of great benefit to the individual as well. We have evolved to want to do this. Not even our instinct for self preservation is as strong as the procreative drive. Parents definitely benefit from having kids.

I highly doubt that fascism provides a similar reward.


Parenting could also turn out to be a disaster for you, and it does for many people. That doesn't mean it is never a good idea. Furthermore, it shows that good for the individual is not the same as good period.
#14754446
I don't think any person who has enjoyed the privilege of living in a liberal society would be able to handle living under fascism. I don't think it's possible, even the most hard-core fascists would quickly find it insufferable.

Of course someone may argue that you could have a single ruler and a socially liberally society like Buonapartism for example, that kind of thing could be tenable. The authoritarian regimes of the previous centuries had replaced earlier authoritarians and people had not lived like we have today to compare and understand much of a difference in their daily routine. The world had been cruel and we have come a huge distance since WWII, historically possibly unprecedented.
#14754448
If parenting is a disaster for you, they you didn't think through the decision of having a child. The reason why it does for alot of people is a lack of understanding how to parent and control their child and an inability to provide for their child.

What? Why would it be a good idea? Why would you, if you know you aren't ready for a child, if you know you don't want or don't like children, if you know you can't provide to children, if you have personal problems that may hurt a child why would you get a child? What reason could you come up with that justifies having a child even if you know you have those issues?
#14754451
What? Why would it be a good idea? Why would you, if you know you aren't ready for a child, if you know you don't want or don't like children, if you know you can't provide to children, if you have personal problems that may hurt a child why would you get a child? What reason could you come up with that justifies having a child even if you know you have those issues?


You don't know what it is like to have a child until you do.
#14754453
Oxymandias wrote:@noemon I agree. However fascism requires a certain environment to work in. A liberal society can become fascist given the right event occurs.


Yes indeed, it most certainly can happen, but I thought the question is on whether we would like living under a fascist boot.
#14754475
@One Degree I am aware however you need to examine yourself and see the parts yourself that could hurt your child if you do happen to have one. If you have mental, stress, financial or responsibility problems you don't go have a kid anyways with the hopes of a child solving all your problems or that your problems don't apply anymore because you have to experience parenthood. That would be ridiculous.

@noemon I know I just didn't know how to respond to your post so I just said something.
#14754522
Saeko wrote:Parenting could also turn out to be a disaster for you, and it does for many people. That doesn't mean it is never a good idea. Furthermore, it shows that good for the individual is not the same as good period.


This does not contradict the idea that parenting benefits parents.

And something can be good for the group and for the individual. Fascism seems to be good for the whole, but not for the individuals.
#14754572
Oxymandias wrote:I don't know what a bourgeois is.

Basically, it's the middle and upper classes, not the working or lower classes.

Oxymandias wrote:If we take your later analogy, hunter scavengers thrive in a hunter scavenger environment and in this scenario and based on what you said, you could very well become a political figure in that situation given you have enough ambition and charisma.

My point was really that people's perceptions differ and that some of it is hard-wired.

Oxymandias wrote:I consider myself a mix of both a hunter gather and an agriculture person.

I wasn't speaking so much as to whether people are absolutely one or the other, but rather that people survived in different ways in different environments. Caucasians became white in part due to the lower level of vitamin D in their diets and the ability of the skin to make more of it with less melanin. For example: Why Did People Become White?. Moving beyond skin color, my DNA is characterized by some interesting traits, like a high non-verbal IQ and strong episodic memory. Paternally, I'm I1* haplogroup, which is Norse. Maternally, I'm J1C which is found a lot in Northern Europe, prominently in Ireland where my mother's family is from. With genetic admixture, it's very likely that people have traits from both hunter-gatherer civilization and from agricultural. It's not quite all settled science yet. However, it's theorized for example that I1 was agricultural and interbred with hunter-gatherer. Since agricultural people inherited lands, they would eventually overtake hunter-gatherers societies as herds shrunk. I'm blue eyed as well, which is a hunter-gatherer trait.

Oxymandias wrote:Obama is gay? How is he gay?

He's been thought by many to "be on the down low" as blacks say. Just look at how he reacts.
Image
There is something inherently feminine in his way of thinking. His response to Benghazi, his "red line in the sand" with Assad, or characterizing the Russian annexation of Crimea as an "uncontested arrival" rather than an invasion.

noemon wrote:I don't think any person who has enjoyed the privilege of living in a liberal society would be able to handle living under fascism.

A lot of the political left consider people like Hitler to be on the right--that is, reactionary. If you consider what fascism is reacting against--in Hitler's case, Marxism--it's understandable why people might tolerate it. Seeing it only from the point of post-WWII anti-fascist propaganda does little to explain why it happened. So much of history reads like that. "Things were cool. Then along came a really bad guy called Hitler and screwed things up. Hitler. Bad bad bad." A lot of liberalism was fairly dystopian after WWI.

noemon wrote:I don't think it's possible, even the most hard-core fascists would quickly find it insufferable.

That's why I ask people if they've read Mein Kampf. Hitler is a fairly conventional Western politicians in many respects. National healthcare, for example, is a fascist idea. ObamaCare is intrinsically a fascist policy. Social Security is a fascist idea too. Freeways (autobahns) are fascist.
Economy of Nazi Germany
The Nazi social welfare provisions included old age insurance, rent supplements, unemployment and disability benefits, old-age homes, interest-free loans for married couples, along with healthcare insurance, which was not decreed mandatory until 1941[35] One of the NSV branches, the Office of Institutional and Special Welfare, was responsible “for travellers’ aid at railway stations; relief for ex-convicts; ‘support’ for re-migrants from abroad; assistance for the physically disabled, hard-of-hearing, deaf, mute, and blind; relief for the elderly, homeless and alcoholics; and the fight against illicit drugs and epidemics.”[36] The Office of Youth Relief, which had 30,000 branches offices by 1941, took the job of supervising “social workers, corrective training, mediation assistance,” and dealing with judicial authorities to prevent juvenile delinquency.[37]

Granted Hitler started wars and is essentially responsible for the death of many millions of people, much of what he proposed is standard today in modern Western countries. As an American, I've always found it odd that Europeans actively promote things like national health care in the US while denouncing fascists at the same time.

noemon wrote:Yes indeed, it most certainly can happen, but I thought the question is on whether we would like living under a fascist boot.

That depends its implementation extensively. As noted, much of what were fascist ideas are common in the West now. For whatever reason, the leftists who adopted some of these innovations refuse to credit fascists for any of it, as if we would all want to round up Jews and kill them merely because we support Social Security, unemployment insurance, etc.
#14754574
blackjack21 wrote:A lot of the political left consider people like Hitler to be on the right--that is, reactionary. If you consider what fascism is reacting against--in Hitler's case, Marxism--it's understandable why people might tolerate it. Seeing it only from the point of post-WWII anti-fascist propaganda does little to explain why it happened. So much of history reads like that. "Things were cool. Then along came a really bad guy called Hitler and screwed things up. Hitler. Bad bad bad." A lot of liberalism was fairly dystopian after WWI.


You are ignoring the main aspect of fascism that of a militaristic system. You haven't been a conscript for a year, let alone live for the rest of your life within such a regiment, no questions, following orders, everything being prescribed, what you wear, what you think, what you say, never questioning authority, you guys in here get a warning and then whinge for days about the authorities putting you down and you believe that you could change your lifestyle and adhere to this kind of program of waking up, going to bed, at prescribed times? Who are you kidding?

If you think fascism is just about being anti-communist then the US has been fascist for a whole century, and that magically your anti-commie cred will earn you some special place within such a system when in fact you are only turning yourself into a worker ant removing from your self your liberal ability to lead the life that you want and choose. You think that this is only about the SJW's not getting their way, but in fact this is about everyone including you not getting your way, whatever that may be.
#14754612
There are many people in the world who would enjoy a Fascist society. The freedom from making decisions is considered Utopia for many. Even those who idealistically reject it, often crave it.
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