[Saeko]

I believe all human actions are motivated by pleasure. Even altruistic actions are motivated by pleasure of helping others and doing what we conceive as "good".

I used to believe this, but I no longer do. If every human action is motivated by pleasure, then none is.

[starman2003]

Many things can lead to addiction, including actions like shopping, sex, work, gambling, cleaning the house, etc.

Undoubtedly. Drugs are only one thing which should be stopped or curtailed. From the point of view of the state or society, addiction to work wouldn't be so bad. Btw in a Statist system, the masses would tend to have less money to spend on vice in the first place.

[Dagoth Ur]

Vices would simply be cheaper. And considering how slavery-like and soul-crushing your ideas about fascism would be like in practice I'm sure you'd need vices to keep people in line.

You really have no possible way of exterminating drug use. People use drugs even under pain of death.

[SolarCross]

Vices would simply be cheaper. And considering how slavery-like and soul-crushing your ideas about fascism would be like in practice I'm sure you'd need vices to keep people in line.

You really have no possible way of exterminating drug use. People use drugs even under pain of death.

I expect that if they ever get their slavery-like soul-crushing totalitarian state-god they will make an 180 degree about face on drug use when they see the suicide rate spike upwards, apart from drugs suicide is the other great escape and they will see that drug use for them is the lesser of two evils. Then they will probably make some opiate derivative compulsory for all their cell machines, maybe a dose in lieu of pay to keep them plodding on in the workplaces. Something like the drug soma in Aldous Huxley's Brave New World.

[Saeko]

Vices would simply be cheaper. And considering how slavery-like and soul-crushing your ideas about fascism would be like in practice I'm sure you'd need vices to keep people in line.

You really have no possible way of exterminating drug use. People use drugs even under pain of death.

I expect that if they ever get their slavery-like soul-crushing totalitarian state-god they will make an 180 degree about face on drug use when they see the suicide rate spike upwards, apart from drugs suicide is the other great escape and they will see that drug use for them is the lesser of two evils. Then they will probably make some opiate derivative compulsory for all their cell machines, maybe a dose in lieu of pay to keep them plodding on in the workplaces. Something like the drug soma in Aldous Huxley's Brave New World.

That's just the weak weeding themselves out. It's something to celebrate.

I think you two would be rather surprised at what people can get used to. Besides, people will naturally want to give up their consumerist lifestyles and state of mind if they think it is for a higher purpose.

[Dystopian Darkness]

I used to believe this, but I no longer do. If every human action is motivated by pleasure, then none is.

What you are affirming is logical contradictory.

That's just the weak weeding themselves out. It's something to celebrate.

Suicide isn't exclusive to dumb or weak people, smart people and strong people commit suicide as well. I'd say that's wasted potential.

I think you two would be rather surprised at what people can get used to. Besides, people will naturally want to give up their consumerist lifestyles and state of mind if they think it is for a higher purpose.

Just like Muslims do?

[Dagoth Ur]

@saeko: why do you think drug use is consumerist? Just because drugs can be consumed does not make them anything like iphones or sneakers.

[Saeko]

@saeko: why do you think drug use is consumerist? Just because drugs can be consumed does not make them anything like iphones or sneakers.

Consumerism is a social and economic order and ideology that encourages the acquisition of goods and services in ever-greater amounts.

It's called "addiction", Dagoth.

[Dagoth Ur]

How do you account for drug use predating farming if it is simply consumerism? I mean it is clearly a commodity at present but it had to be commodified (and due to their illicit nature this process has been very restrained) and there is zero reason to beloeve that ending consumerism would even dent drug usage. Also why are you under the impression that drug use = addiction?

[Saeko]

How do you account for drug use predating farming if it is simply consumerism? I mean it is clearly a commodity at present but it had to be commodified (and due to their illicit nature this process has been very restrained) and there is zero reason to beloeve that ending consumerism would even dent drug usage. Also why are you under the impression that drug use = addiction?

Overeating predates farming too, but that in no way means it isn't consumerist. Although, I think you're using a very different definition of consumerist. Something that is over-consumed or consumed for consumption's sake does not have to be a commodity.

Also why are you under the impression that drug use = addiction?

If this is gonna turn into one of those ridiculous "drugs are actually good for you" discussions, then we should end it right here.

[Dagoth Ur]

Overeating predates farming too

,
No it doesn't. People stuffed their faces when they could because they'd likely be close to starvingnfor the next few months. The notion of a food surplus never existed before farming.

but that in no way means it isn't consumerist.

It doesn't mean it will end with consumerism either.

Although, I think you're using a very different definition of consumerist. Something that is over-consumed or consumed for consumption's sake does not have to be a commodity.

No I am using commodification as the basis for my statements. I will acknowledge that I didnt phrase myself properly in the first place.

If this is gonna turn into one of those ridiculous "drugs are actually good for you" discussions, then we should end it right here.

You dodged the question. Why do you think drug use is addiction? And why is addiction necessarily bad?

[starman2003]

That's just the weak weeding themselves out. It's something to celebrate.

I don't recall anything about mass suicide in past totalitarian systems. The state can eliminate its internal enemies without their help.

I think you two would be rather surprised at what people can get used to. Besides, people will naturally want to give up their consumerist lifestyles and state of mind if they think it is for a higher purpose.

Past totalitarian systems weren't "soul crushing." Great numbers of Germans were very enthusiastic about the Fuhrer and nazi regime. They were united in a great common cause. Drugs are for a culture like ours, where people tend to have nothing but sensual gratification (either that or the "higher purpose" of holy hogwash ).

[UnusuallyUsual]

This is intriguing. I like hearing "fascists" describe their views. To an extent it sounds almost like trolling though, because the views are just absolutely horrible and how could anyone sincerely think that way, but yeah. Wow!

There is something sort of "Clear" and "Focused" about fascism I think. I think a lot of it has to do with Fascism = Extreme Egotism maybe. Fascists pretend it is about a collective will but in reality it is about THEY as an individual (or small elite group) controlling everybody else and imposing THEIR particular views on everybody else. So it's really extreme egotism, and that I think helps to account for its seeming clarity and focus - the "baggage" of compromise or attempts to understand people who are different from you are gone.

[Cromwell]

So it's really extreme egotism, and that I think helps to account for its seeming clarity and focus - the "baggage" of compromise or attempts to understand people who are different from you are gone.

You might be selling them short, with the luxury of hindsight. It's easy to see all fascists, nowadays, as would-be dictators. That, however, ignores that during fascism's golden age (the thirties) there were thousands of men who would call themselves fascists knowing full well who their leader was and that it wasn't them.

It would be hard to describe men such as Rudolf Hess, A.K. Chesterton or Ramiro Ledesma as being driven by egotism, for example.

[Saeko]

This is intriguing. I like hearing "fascists" describe their views. To an extent it sounds almost like trolling though, because the views are just absolutely horrible and how could anyone sincerely think that way, but yeah. Wow!

There is something sort of "Clear" and "Focused" about fascism I think. I think a lot of it has to do with Fascism = Extreme Egotism maybe. Fascists pretend it is about a collective will but in reality it is about THEY as an individual (or small elite group) controlling everybody else and imposing THEIR particular views on everybody else. So it's really extreme egotism, and that I think helps to account for its seeming clarity and focus - the "baggage" of compromise or attempts to understand people who are different from you are gone.

Do you think people join the army with the sole intention to become a general?

[UnusuallyUsual]

Do you think people join the army with the sole intention to become a general?

Of course not. But it seems clear to me the essence of Fascism is the Master-Slave relationship. I guess we can tell from human psychological studies that indeed some people are masochistic. But I don't think that significantly alters my appraisal about Extreme Egotism being a big driver behind Fascism.

[Saeko]

Of course not. But it seems clear to me the essence of Fascism is the Master-Slave relationship. I guess we can tell from human psychological studies that indeed some people are masochistic. But I don't think that significantly alters my appraisal about Extreme Egotism being a big driver behind Fascism.

Then what makes this so clear to you, when you seem to believe it is false in the case of soldiers joining the army?

[UnusuallyUsual]

Then what makes this so clear to you, when you seem to believe it is false in the case of soldiers joining the army?

I wouldn't exactly say soldiers joining the army is precisely equivalent to "being in favor of Fascism" to begin with.

People become soldiers for all sorts of highly idiosyncratic personal reasons, probably mainly due to economic necessity.

Some more high-ranking soldiers might join (especially in the past this was more true) out of a kind of sense of "Duty" and "Chivalry" or some such. But increasingly the world's militaries are becoming privatized and controlled by companies are they not? Mercenaries might just view it as a career which they have a competitive advantage in terms of their skills, to do well in financially.

Also increasingly it seems like "the army" is the least relevant aspect of "the military" overall. More and more, actual usage of "the military" comes in more abstract ways like people sitting in chairs FAR away from the conflict zone operating UAVs/drones. Not to mention the entire "Cyberspace Theatre" which is nearly wholly abstracted from the conventional violence of militaries.

I guess I am suggesting to you that increasingly fewer and fewer people even DO join "the army". Which can be viewed I guess as a shrivelling up of the old motives which used to push some people into deference to an All-Knowing State. I definitely perceive a strong "Libertarian Capitalist" bent worldwide, as a sort of MegaTrend.

At least in so far as I am familiar with the term, "Fascism" basically means "Extreme dictatorship, emphasis on race preferences, socially regressive, economically top-down and elitist". Military adventurism as a way to distract and unite the population is also a part, not sure how sustainable it really is though, so I left it out. To me, it's just all about really pursuing Hierarchy in every way, almost worshipping Hierarchy, which is how I view it as embodying the concept of Master-Slave, and therefore it is either Extreme Egotists who favor Fascism (they want to tell everyone else to do things THEIR way only) or masochists (people who are more comfortable not having to make any decisions or even having to think too much).

[starman2003]

You might be selling them short, with the luxury of hindsight. It's easy to see all fascists, nowadays, as would-be dictators. That, however, ignores that during fascism's golden age (the thirties) there were thousands of men who would call themselves fascists knowing full well who their leader was and that it wasn't them.

According to Shirer's observations, even the proletariat didn't much mind their inferior status in the Third Reich. I remember Tyrssen once noted all the people in the AFP favored fascism as the solution to this or that. Never once did anybody state he expected to be the Great Leader, or have any personal power.

[Pants-of-dog]

...
While everyone seems to have some sort of Napoleon complex where they are imagining themselves to be at the very top of this strict hierarchy that will manifest in a fascist society, no one likes to think as the little guy working in a factory.

I completely agree.

-----------------------------

...When was the last time the cells in your body complained about not being paid enough for the hard work of keeping you alive? If you could give them the option to do whatever they want instead of what is required to keep your body as a whole functioning would you let them?

...

The state is no more or less real than you are. After all you are just a collection of cells, but nobody would give that as a reason for why you don't exist. A collection of things is a real thing for all intents and purposes, selective mereological nihilism notwithstanding.

My body, as an independent biological organism that is empirically observable, is "more real" than the state because the state does not objectively exist like I do. The state is not a biological organism, like I am.

I am more than a collection of cells, just as the state is more than a collection of individuals, as you say. But the state is also less than a collection of individuals. It is an industrial tool, as Buckminster Fuller would say, By that I mean that it is a tool designed to be use by more than one person, and the state is the tool we use to organise our community. It responds to the needs of the people. The people do not respond to its needs.

Do you think people join the army with the sole intention to become a general?

No, but many join it so that they can have a little bit of power over others. They may not get to lead armies, but they still get to wear the pretty uniform and shoot the dissenters, which is better than being a dissenter.

Fascists always imagine themselves as being the ones with the snappy uniforms and the guns.