[Rainbow Crow]

I am wondering if any fascists would like to expound upon these Mussolini quotes for me.

If relativism signifies contempt for fixed categories and those who claim to be the bearers of objective immortal truth ... then there is nothing more relativistic than Fascist attitudes and activity... From the fact that all ideologies are of equal value, that all ideologies are mere fictions, the modern relativist infers that everybody has the right to create for himself his own ideology and to attempt to enforce it with all the energy of which he is capable.

First, it seems to me that here Mussolini is stating that according to relativism, no ideology is of greater value than any other. Second, because ideologies are equal (due to their being relative) then an ideology created by someone must necessarily also be equal. Therefore, there is no reason for relativists to argue that fascists cannot create their own ideologies because all ideologies are in the eye of the beholder (subjective relativism).

Fascism is a religious conception in which man is seen in his immanent relationship with a superior law and with an objective Will that transcends the particular individual and raises him to conscious membership of a spiritual society. Whoever has seen in the religious politics of the Fascist regime nothing but mere opportunism has not understood that Fascism besides being a system of government is also, and above all, a system of thought.

Here, Mussolini is stating that the ideology created by fascism is a quasi-religious one the elevates the state into a "superior law" with an "objective Will" that exists as an absolute objective value to which all men must adhere in an "immanent relationship." This is not "mere opportunism" in the subjective sense but the creation of something greater that has priority over individual subjective viewpoints.

[Fasces]

The first is recognition that all ideology (and indeed all social behavior) is myth and that it has no absolute truth. The second is advocating that fascism aims to become an absolute truth for the societies which adopt it, superseding individual subjectivity within that society for all practical purposes, as religions are apt to do. To become a citizen, you will need to embrace a world view that is absolutist in that it does not allow for diversity of opinion while it is being embraced, in the same way that becoming a Christian requires you to turn away all "false idols". Christianity may not be more truthful than Hinduism, but you cannot be both at the same time - and the same is true of fascist political ideology.

[Rainbow Crow]

Thanks Fasces, they are good quotes and I can't really disagree with them even if I disagree with fascism itself.

[Jay Ranger]

So would I be right in saying that the point of fascism is to enforce via the state a form of noble lie upon a populace that would be conditioned to believe as objective truth? Wouldn't this aim massively halt the progress of science?

[Far-Right Sage]

Excellent quotes indeed coming from Mussolini there. Fasces' explanation was right on target.

So would I be right in saying that the point of fascism is to enforce via the state a form of noble lie upon a populace that would be conditioned to believe as objective truth? Wouldn't this aim massively halt the progress of science?

What form of science do you believe such a national adoption and awakening would inhibit? Fascism is anything but anti-science and scientific progress. I'm unsure why this clearly fallacious myth has persisted for so long.

[Fasces]

So would I be right in saying that the point of fascism is to enforce via the state a form of noble lie upon a populace that would be conditioned to believe as objective truth? Wouldn't this aim massively halt the progress of science?

No, because there is no objective social truth. A state should maintain a clear policy identity, but which policy is best varies on the historical and cultural circumstances of that state and the national community it seeks to serve/represent. Social and economic policies in Saudi Arabia can not be applied directly to the American state - it would not work.

This is what is meant by the idea that ideology is relative - there is no universal truth. Fascism seeks to create authentic nationalist societies, which means the state should adopt as true whatever policy best reflects the national character or national needs. In picking one ideology, however, it becomes impossible to pick policies which contradict it. In that sense, it is absolutist.

[Rainbow Crow]

Can a fascist state truly function and thrive while admitting that their brand of truth is not absolute or objectively valuable? I find it hard to believe that when Mussolini mentions an "objective will" that he does not intend for it to be considered absolute or objective.

What he believes himself is distinctive from this, I am talking about what he holds it out to be and why.

[Rich]

Relativism doesn't make things equal. It just means there is no absolute scale by which they can be compared. It means that all three statements:

A = B
A > B
A < B

have no meaning. It makes no sense to say they are true or untrue. Relativists are correct without there is no absolute moral standard. what does murder mean in a world of bacteria? The problem is they always try and smuggle a scale though the back door without us noticing. We get this from Jesus :"Don't judge lest you be judged" that's rich coming from one of the most judgemental guys that ever lived, to our modern day diversity mongers who are actually trying to impose cultural and ideological conformity. Its rather similar to our Richard Dawkins style Atheists who claim to have no Metaphysic. You can't get out of bed without a Meta physic.

[Rainbow Crow]

That is one of the things I am trying to say here, people can attempt to call it different things, but non-subjective values must exist to form a society. It makes no sense to try and say that these non-subjective values are not objective values, unless maybe if you are some kind of nihilist and Mussolini does not strike me as a nihilist.

Just as you can't get out of bed without physics, you can't have non-subjective values without having objective values since they are broad terms that seek to define all forms of valuation based upon the distinction inevitably created by the human experience.

[Fasces]

Each ideology defines a set of values and a scale with which to measure them. Adoption of the ideology creates objective values but they are not so until adoption of the value system, hence their relativity.

[Rainbow Crow]

I see, I guess we are somewhat in agreement then.

Another Mussolini quote:
Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute, in comparison with which all individuals or groups are relative, only to be conceived in their relation to the State.

Perhaps the distinguishing feature of Fascism is this? Since there is no shortage of distinction between different fascist groups.

[Fasces]

That quote is meaningless without context. Everything and anything can be considered to be an absolute relative to other things.

Why fascists emphasize the state is explained here: viewtopic.php?p=14147010#p14147010

[Rainbow Crow]

Thanks for the link. I think I may have a better understanding of fascism now. While liberal ideology views the state as a servant of absolute or fundamental individual rights, fascism views individuals as servants to a greater will or spirit whose body is the apparatus of the state. The absolutism or fundamentalism is held by the state and not by individuals.

This seems to be the only characteristic that the Germans, Italians, Japanese and Brazilian integralists all shared.

It would also explain how Rei Murasame can be a fascist despite holding values that seem to contradict most of those held by the original fascists, since she clearly believes that individuals should serve the state.

[Fasces]

Rei is part of the Nouvelle Droite movement.