[Preston Cole]

What do people on this forum think about Ba'athist Iraq and Ba'athism?

I'm by no means well-educated on the history of the movement, but it seems to embody a great number of modern authoritarian elements: state socialism, secularism, neo-authoritarianism and nationalism. While I don't think we can explicitly call it fascist, although BBC journalists called it such repeatedly, there is a significant resemblance with fascist policy in its secularism and nationalism. It's not conservative as we understand it; Saddam greatly extended women's rights (although both Mosley and Mussolini enacted more women's participation in public life alongside their patriarchal rhetoric), and I doubt its state socialism can be attributed to any traditionalist/conservative thought. Basically, all it lacks is economic corporatism and perhaps a totalitarian system (as we know, Ba'athist Iraq functioned under an authoritarian dominant-party system) to truly fit the Fascist label.

It's an interesting topic, if you think of it from a historical perspective. It's both a modern example of authoritarianism as well as a sort of non-religious para-fascism.

[Section Leader]

I would argue that Ba'athism was influenced by the same worldviews and founding ideals behind Fascism, but that it does have it's own defining characteristics that seperate it from Fascism. It's called 'Fascist' by western journalists simply as an insult. Fascism is a European* movement intended to answer European problems while Ba'athism is an Arab movement intended to answer Arab problems, Fascism and Ba'athism are in my humble opinion siblings rather than parent and child.


*European in this sense referring to all countries that have a European majority population, such as Australia.

[Traianus]

My knowledge of Ba'athism is limited to Saddam's reign, mind.

Ba'athism is a much more dynastic movement in my opinion, it certainly doesn't share the meritocratic side of fascism. Saddam's children where heirs to the proverbial throne, and positions of power were appointed to people who got on Saddam's good side.

Ba'thism does share in the genocidal/purging/persecuting side of Nazism though, and the general militaristic spirit of fascism (Iraq had the 5th largest army in the world at one point if I recall correctly).

[Preston Cole]

Ba'thism does share in the genocidal/purging/persecuting side of Nazism though,

I wouldn't go so far as to say it was genocidal. The attack on the Kurds was an isolated wartime offensive. Mussolini used mustard gas on the Abyssinians, too. Chemical warfare is extremely effective and has been used consistently since the First World War.

[starman2003]

I wouldn't go so far to say it was genocidal.

Nor I. Saddam didn't want, in principle, to kill Kurds or other non-sunnis. He had to suppress them to maintain the unity of his country.
Generally, baathism sounds OK to me. Its ultimate failure, in Iraq, was due to Saddam's incompetence. He was a fool to attack Iran in 1980 and Kuwait in 1990. Don't get me wrong; I'd be a hegemonist too. But timing is critical. He invaded Kuwait after the soviet collapse deprived him of a superpower backup and enabled the West to redeploy forces from Europe to Saudi Arabia.
I suggest this course of action:
1980. Don't attack Iran but use the armed forces to strengthen Osirak to the greatest degree possible, as Israel was already threatening to strike. Also, initiate a crash arms purchasing/training program--more SU-24s, MIG-27s or better and T-72s etc.
1984. After building and training much better forces, begin planning for the move south.
1985. Invade not only Kuwait in a surprise operation but continue on to seize eastern Saudi Arabia including of course, its oil export facilities. By taking them too, Iraq probably would've had too large a share of world output to make sanctions practical. Moreover it would deprive the US of bases to initiate a ground buildup against Iraq--which might also have had an a-bomb by this time, besides a still intact USSR (which might've refrained from wimping out if there was a prospect of it benefitting from a client controlling so much oil). Lastly, in this scenario, Iraq's armed forces wouldn't be degraded and demoralized by the long Iran-Iraq war.
If baathism had had a modicum of brains at its helm it might've turned out to be a great movement indeed. But all this is so academic.....

[J Oswald]

I would say that Ba'athism presents many of the same characteristics of Italian fascism, especially the lack of religious motivation. However, the kleptocratic and nepotistic aspects of it just make it seem more like a stereotypical corrupt 3rd world movement.

[starman2003]

In his last years in power, Saddam emphasized/used Islam to a greater degree, even building a big mosque. It was presumably a tactic to divert people's attention away from economic hardship under sanctions, which could threaten his regime.