[Notorious B.i.G.]

My god there are some spectacular British cars out and comming out at the moment.

Aston Martin One-77

Drool

And Jag has made a strong comeback. The new XK is a very nice car, but the XF gee wiz, that is a very sexy car. All I can think about is winning lotto so I can buy a XFR

Brand new 5lt V8 supercharged. The cat has claws again... All Jag need to do now is replace that horrible looking XJ, and maybe update the X-type
What do people reckon? Adrien? (I know you love you're cars)

[Adrien]

Yes the Brits are back and catching all the attention, and, I swear what's coming is an unbiased statement hehe, it's thanks to Ford. Even if they sold Aston Martin, Land Rover and Jaguar off they left them better than they ever were both financially and in terms of new or soon-to-come models.



Well, if you leave that dodgy Lagonda concept car from a couple weeks ago, because the One-77 is really exclusive, and made desirable, not like the 50th limited edition Veyron (plus that car is so old). Otherwise in my opinion Bentley is very blah (even the E85 concept car or whatever), and Rolls Royce (though the new Ghost might be good) is a bit passé and only good for blue-haired billionaires.

But yeah the XFR is very sexy. Very much. Understated performance sedans, gotta love them eh! Have you seen the new teaser shot for the XJ? Quite the revolution too!

Even MG is coming back, the Chinese overlords have revealed the new model (MG6 its gonna be called I think), a performance hatch that looks a lot like the latest Acura ZDX concept, but in better. And it comes with a turbo engine.

[Notorious B.i.G.]

No I haven't seen the XJ teaser. Can you post it?

[Thunderhawk]

I recognize the look the Aston Martin One-77 is going for/copying, but I cannot pluck it from memory.


Anyways, very few British cars here in Canada, though there is a Jag dealership not too far from my home.

[Adrien]

No I haven't seen the XJ teaser. Can you post it?

Sure, like I said, it's a teaser shot hehe. And I have no idea what the logo of Who Wants to be a Millionaire does under the car. Is it Jaguar trying to be witty? The treatment of the C-pillar and rear screen is interesting from that angle.

http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/jalopnik/2009/04/2010_Jaguar_XJ.jpg

Anyways, very few British cars here in Canada, though there is a Jag dealership not too far from my home.

I can't remember seeing any, cars or dealership actually, either. Must be because the pound is usually so high, it must make them be filthy expensive.

[Thunderhawk]

There is money and expensive imports about, you just have to know where to look.

I saw a Maybach once, casually parked in front of a catholic school downtown and was dirty from the winter snow/salt/water, so money apparantly isnt that big of an issue. Heh, Even a homeless person noticed what it was.

Though it was in front of (prestigious) Saint Michael's Catholic school..

[Adrien]

There is money and expensive imports about, you just have to know where to look.

True, but then there is value. Maybe it's not the case at all, but for the same money, don't you have more from Mercedes or Audi than from Jaguar (that is before the XF and future XJ I'd say)? There's also image I suppose, maybe English imports are still plagued from the reputation of terrible reliability in the 70s and 80s.

I saw a Maybach once, casually parked in front of a catholic school downtown and was dirty from the winter snow/salt/water, so money apparantly isnt that big of an issue. Heh, Even a homeless person noticed what it was.

Ah, Maybach. I think I have only ever seen one or two in Paris. I guess for that it was an issue of going dandy, because I think it's pretty bad in value compared to traditional luxury marques. But yes I guess you can find any kind of care anywhere, but sometimes factors come in to help or disserve this or that brand.

[Thunderhawk]

True, but then there is value. Maybe it's not the case at all, but for the same money, don't you have more from Mercedes or Audi than from Jaguar (that is before the XF and future XJ I'd say)? There's also image I suppose, maybe English imports are still plagued from the reputation of terrible reliability in the 70s and 80s.

My knowledge of the everyman's view on British imports is low. I am not an everyman, but some of my friends are. I suppose the reliability problems of the past (and ugly appearnce of British cars in general) had an affect - but I suspect their current absense is a product of the low/no image in Canada rather then a bad reputation. Mercedes are known for money and style, BMW for performance and ~style, and you will see a good chunk of those imports on the roads. Jaguar registers as a luxury car, but nothing in a specific sense: are they high end luxury? performance? rich businessman's car? etc?



Accura, BMW, Infinity, Lexus, Mercedes.
I listed them alphabetically.
If you were to list them generally in terms of least/most luxurious, would it be difficult?
How about best performance? reliability? cost?

Where would you put Jaguar?
-> I for one have no idea where to put Jag.

[Adrien]

Well if you look at the way they marketed themselves, and have been doing so since the 1970s, they are the brand of British luxury. It doesn't mean much as such, but if you take the image that, say, Acura and Lexus have built, it's one of brands at the cutting edge of technology. Who cares if they look like jelly beans right?

Jaguar was the opposite, it was supposed to be made for connoisseurs, who appreciate not technology but fine leather, fine woods, plush carpetting, etc. Hybrids? Eletronic aids? Suspension wizardry? Multimedia systems? They didn't apply any or almost any, let alone develop them, unlike every other brand you named I would say. The Germans are more than cutting edge in the facts, they are leading developpers.

So the British brand became prisonners of that image, quite terribly (see S-Type, X-type, or how the latest XJ, although built with an aluminium frame technology, looks exactly like the previous one, which dates back to 1994 I think). So now they are going back in the game by playing the technology card again, while presenting the card of being a brand that knows what luxury is about because they have always done that.

Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, they are all nouveau riche. What credentials do they have? Where is experience, where is the knowledge of fine craftsmanship? These are rhetorical questions, I'm putting myself in the shoes of the folks at Jag.

Well when you look at the XF, you see: cutting edge design taken straight from a concept-car, wizardry everywhere, a wide range of world-famous engines, but the name is Jaguar. It carries the heritage in and of itself.

[QatzelOk]

British teeth; on the way back!

[Thunderhawk]

Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, they are all nouveau riche. What credentials do they have? Where is experience, where is the knowledge of fine craftsmanship? These are rhetorical questions, I'm putting myself in the shoes of the folks at Jag.

Canada could be considered nouveau riche, same with many of the rich(er) people in Canada.

[Adrien]

I think it would be unfair to dub Canada as a whole 'nouveau riche'. Like everywhere, there are social classes of all sorts, and social groups of all sorts. Now, are rich Canadians 'nouveau riche', I guess, given the very nature of Canada as a new country.

[Thunderhawk]

So why should they go with traditional and classical British examples of fine craftsmenship when there are so many "examples" of fine craftsmenship available from other makers? - makers that have a known social image.

[Adrien]

First, I don't think, that brands other than the British ones capitalize today on fine craftsmanship and that image of sophistication, in the old-fashioned sense of the term, "suranné" we would say in French (it's old-fashioned but with a positive connotation of elegance, etc.).

Why? Because today what's trendy is technology, electronics, wizardry of all sorts. So brands that play in that category jump on that bandwagon, not the other one. If you go further, that's precisely why Lexus, Infinit and Acura were created and then took on international markets instead of just being the luxo badge of generalist manufacturers in Japan. In the good ol' days you could not create a brand like that, it required experience, it required a reputation.

Even Mercedes is all about electronics and new-age technology. BMW has been since the beginning of the Bangle era. So it left Jaguar on the side of the road, along with Lancia and Rover. At least, Jaguar had the giant Ford behind them so unlike Rover they didn't just sink in the Channel.

But business is business, so these brands are changing the game. Jaguar through the XK, XF and soon XJ are trying to reinvent themselves, to take the new essence of luxury that is wizardry and inject some of the personnality, experience and reputation that is lacking in Lexus, Acura and Infiniti. And Lancia is doing the same with the Delta.

As to social image, well, honestly, I'm not sure people who drive Japanese luxobarges enjoy a very positive image out there. It's like... people who wear extremely expensive suits but fail to get them to the tailor and do that extra step that makes all the difference. When you drive a Lexus, yeah okay. When you drive a Jag.. it ain't the same, especially if you drive the crazy XF.

As to BMW drivers.. I'll refer you to Clarkson's opinion on them, I happen to share the same.

[Thunderhawk]

I happen to like the traditional craftsmenship of the British. Wood, polish, leather.. all these suit my sensibilities more then the plastic and various gadgets of Japanese cars - and Im a technophile.

That being said, I believe you are dismissing other (Japanese) companies simply because their craftsmenship goes in another way.

I'm not sure people who drive Japanese luxobarges enjoy a very positive image out there. It's like... people who wear extremely expensive suits but fail to get them to the tailor and do that extra step that makes all the difference. When you drive a Lexus, yeah okay. When you drive a Jag.. it ain't the same

And though I share some of those sentiments, do you think the average person does?
Or the average well to do Canadian?

[Adrien]

I happen to like the traditional craftsmenship of the British. Wood, polish, leather.. all these suit my sensibilities more then the plastic and various gadgets of Japanese cars - and Im a technophile.

Well I am not saying that technophiles have to taste for the fine things in life eh, but there is a difference between liking such appointments, enjoying them at large, and shelling out the money required by a British car to live and drive every day without what the said technophiles like at home: good stereo, multimedia system, extensively informational SatNav (à la Travelink), USB integration, power everything, LED lamps, HID headlights, and a cohort of electronic safety controls.

These seem like extras, gadgets, and they are if you drive a sub-compact. But the bigger and the more expensive the car, they sort of become necessities. Like airbags today in the the smallest of cars. That is why I think the Brits and other defenders of traditional luxury outside of Britain (Lancia, Lincoln, etc.) were left out by buyers for a long time.

Cadillac was the same, and yet they went down Wizardry lane and are now more fashionable than ever (beyond the success of the Escalade). Buick was the same and now look at the new LaCrosse/Allure! (that Lacrosse name thing always makes me laugh hehe) Lincoln was the same and look at the MKS! "A starship on wheels" according to their ads, that's really saying something, this new image of luxury brands are now attending to.

That being said, I believe you are dismissing other (Japanese) companies simply because their craftsmenship goes in another way.

Well I was try to reason from the perspective of the Brits, but I happen to find Acuras really nice (their sedans anyway), and I am sensitive to some of their technical aspects, like for instance my nerd self drools over the SH-AWD system of the TL and RL, and the sound-cancelling speed-adjusted stereo of the RL, and the VTEC system, etc. But would I shell out the money? Probably not, it lacks the sex-appeal. And soft Corinthian leather.



Lexus and Infinitis are horrible jelly-beaned luxobarges inside and out in my opinion, though.

And though I share some of those sentiments, do you think the average person does?
Or the average well to do Canadian?

I can't say. I spend way too much time thinking and reading about cars to see them as the average buyer does.

What I have seen though is that yes in North America at large, the importance of this old-age tradition, craftsmanship and social message sent by the car is hardly ever found.

Who in Europe would be seen in a Japanese or Korean luxury car? Nobody, they go for cars that convey something once they enter that price range, be it from a Bimmer, a Mercedes, or even traditionnal French luxury: the Peugeot 607 is arguably very poor in value-for-price but it is the car you get when you have made it these days. The Citroen C6 is the flagship of our industry, and going all the way to getting one means even more in terms of personnal success.

In the US/Canada getting a Lincoln or a Caddy means something, but among a restricted part of the population I think, both in age and in geography. So yes people in North America probably at large look at value before image, value before reputation and aura.

[Thunderhawk]

So yes people in North America probably at large look at value before image, value before reputation and aura.

Dont forget horsepower in that equation set. Monstrous engines arent typical in luxury cars, but a good powerplant is generally required.

[Adrien]

That's true indeed. I'm always amazed at the difference of perception of horsepower in America and Europe.. Of course, it's also due to the fact that North Americans do a lot more of highway driving and towing, opposite the sophistication of European engines, but still it's pretty special to me.

In the US, a subcompact with an 130 hp I-4 is seen as underpowered, while in Europe the most of the sales are done for engines of 90 to 105-ish hp, of much smaller displacement. And a midsize car's career is doomed in North America if it doesn't have a V6, while in Europe a V6 is totally secondary and hardly ever sells. Quite crazy.

But yes it's a matter of automotive culture, just like size, trunk space... and cupholders.

[Thunderhawk]

In the US, a subcompact with an 130 hp I-4 is seen as underpowered, while in Europe the most of the sales are done for engines of 90 to 105-ish hp, of much smaller displacement. And a midsize car's career is doomed in North America if it doesn't have a V6, while in Europe a V6 is totally secondary and hardly ever sells. Quite crazy.

You will want to adjust your choice of words and any possible condescending tone when around North American gearheads.

At best, that wont get positive responces from most North American gear heads.
At worst, people who dont even know you will call you something derogatory involving the words "pussy", "French" and "commie" ..
Which is half true, so perhaps it wont be an issue..


[macho North American car guy]
I4s are for small pussy cars. Real cars have V8s. V6s were a necessary evil and now a standard for fuel economy. They are more acceptable with Vtec or other cool features, but its still a downgrade.
[/macho car guy]

A couple cars and I believe a truck had I4s and I5s they are.. not impressive by USA and Canadian standards.
(I just realized I cant speak for Mexico or the rest of North America)

[Adrien]

Wow, I didn't expect it to be taken that way. I said crazy with absolutely no connotation, the difference between our two continents' automotive philosophy is very surprising and thought-provoking, but in the way a difference in any other area of culture can be. It merely sparks interest and curiosity on my part.

For the anecdote, just like Quebec paradoxically upholds French better than France itself, I think Australia upholds the muscle-car and big-engine culture better than North-America itself.

A couple cars and I believe a truck had I4s and I5s they are.. not impressive by USA and Canadian standards.

Well I4s are available widely on the US market, from domestic brands as well as foreign brands. But I guess, and maybe I was indeed seeing the reasonning the other way round from my European perspective, they are technologically lagging because of that cultural burden they have to carry in the North-American car culture. I mean, here that's where manufacturers invest their time and efforts, playing with variable-valve-timing, direct fuel injection, turbocharging, etc. In North-America it's true it really is the poor guy's choice now that I think of it.

And Chrysler's World Engine I4, all of GM's I4s and Ford's Duratec I4 (until the 2009 refresh) are usually beaten to a pulp in the reviews I've read. So yes, there's a key difference in culture there for sure.

As to I5s I've never driven any, but I only hear great things about them, how they're the best combination, the best mix of compacity and efficiency. The European Duratec I5 (found in Aussie XR5s too, and which is actually Volvo's T5 engine) has had amazing reviews.