The Pro-Stalin Argument - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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By Decky
#14205215
So you don't have any evidence, makes a change.

People in Russia were scared to death of being sent to the gulag, there was a reason for that.


People in the USA are scared to death of being sent to prison, there is a reason for that.


What is your point?
#14205474
First of all, let's get a few things straight.

Stalin's rule came at a time when the USSR was isolated from much of the world. The failed German, Italian, and Hungarian revolutions/rebellions had led to a situation wherein the USSR was effectively reduced in scope to the new, post-WWI borders drawn up around the Curzon Line along the Soviet-Polish border. The USSR was meant to be a unified federation of socialist states, Lenin having wanted to stretch it's boundaries all the way to Germany.

Paraphrased from Stalin: A Biography by Robert Service:

Lenin wanted a general federal union with Germany, with the economy to be administered 'from a single organ.'

Stalin disagreed that Germany would willingly enter such a federation expecting the same rights as the Ukraine, which had been recently absorbed into the expanding Soviet order.

paraphrased From pages 170-80

Stalin's "socialism-in-one-country" policy was an arguable necessity in a world which had become increasingly hostile to the nascent Soviet Union, even more so with the rise of fascism in both Italy and Germany, the consequence of their failed revolutions.

Stalin effectively rebuilt a war-torn nation (or rather, a union of nations) up into an industrial powerhouse capable of holding it's own against Germany and it's European allies.

That alone should be an indicator that Stalin had achieved much in a very short time throughout the 1930's due to the implementation of the Five-year Plans.

What were the personal merits of comrade Stalin?


Besides the fact that he was a powerful leader?

He was furthermore human, and in being human was capable of mistakes and not to mention complex emotions.

Stalin started his revolutionary career in Georgia, his home growing up. He, like Trotsky and others, voluntarily joined the Russian Social-Democratic Labor Party (which would later split into a "Bolshevik" and a "Menshevik" faction). People in the Russian Empire were attracted to Marxism because they saw the oppression going on around them in the towns and in the villages, which it can be said, was being caused by capitalism which operated in tandem with the towering bureaucratic Tsarist state. Lenin and many others whom followed him during the October Revolution (and even before) were very much against bureaucracy. Lenin, in his dying days, would warn against the bureaucratic trend emerging the new Soviet order; He, as with many others whom joined the Bolsheviks, had fought for soviet power-popular, grassroots democracy-and loathed the new bureaucracy which first came into being around 1918, one year into the October Revolution, the Soviet republic having survived only slightly longer then the fabled Paris Commune, an ideal state that Lenin would urge the creation of in his numerous political books and articles.

Stalin came into a position of leadership after Lenin's untimely death. He was a part of the generation which had gone through the arduous July Days and then into the uncharted waters which resulted from the October Revolution.

As such he made many mistakes in both theory and in practice, but that is to be expected of any politician and/or leader.

Successes and achievements?


Bringing the Soviet Union onto equal footing with other powers of his day, chiefly Germany and later the United States.

The Five-year Plans came alongside the tumultuous drive for collectivization of agriculture. Both, despite their costs, made the USSR economically self-sufficient for the most part.

Personal faults?


Years ago I would have said that he was evil, in the same vein as Hitler.

But if one actually closely views Nazi and Soviet society, one will notice a much higher degree of repression in Nazi Germany then in the Soviet Union. Eastern Europe in the '50's during Stalin's leadership was being laid to waste by the Nazis in the '30's and '40's, whom only wanted to exploit their new eastern territories. Education, culture, living standards, etc were to be kept artificially low, as low as possible in fact.

In contrast, Eastern Europe during the Soviet era actually managed to scrape by pretty well despite everything. It can be said that the Red Army's entry into occupied Eastern Europe spared an entire region of mainland Europe from utter devastation.

Another region of the world spared the horrors of fascism was in China. Many in China feared a "change of sky" (or a successful counterrevolution) would come to northern China. The communists there prevailed against all odds both against Japanese attempts at direct colonization and at a no less brutal attempt by the Nationalists to seize control of China post-WWII.

But that's for another thread...

Failures and mistakes?


Tons, but overall he made many successes as well. No one, esp. someone in his position, is immune from making mistakes.
#14205579
Stalin's "socialism-in-one-country" policy was an arguable necessity in a world which had become increasingly hostile to the nascent Soviet Union, even more so with the rise of fascism in both Italy and Germany, the consequence of their failed revolutions.


If anything there was a decrease in hostility. Many of the world's powers during the international revolution and the civil war were intervening in Russia, and even after their defeat refused to recognize the USSR. The USSR in the 30s was part of the League of Nations, extensively trading with the world to facilitate industrialization, and later supplying German armies with the hope the imperialists would destroy each other.

Fascism is an exception, but it was the USSR diplomatically getting on its feet, retreating from revolution and embracing popular front, and cooperating with the western imperialists that allowed it to overcome.

Socialism in one country wasn't even of Stalin's formulation, it was proposed by Bukharin, who would be purged along with almost every other important bolshevik.

Stalin effectively rebuilt a war-torn nation (or rather, a union of nations) up into an industrial powerhouse capable of holding it's own against Germany and it's European allies.


Which is ironic because he was lambasting the faction that was proposing the ideas he'd use in the 30s as 'super-industrialists', and they were purged too. The issue of time wasn't helped by his years of defense of the NEP either.


Bringing the Soviet Union onto equal footing with other powers of his day, chiefly Germany and later the United States.


This is Stalin's true achievement, creating another imperialist.
User avatar
By fuser
#14205846
Conscript wrote:Socialism in one country wasn't even of Stalin's formulation, it was proposed by Bukharin, who would be purged along with almost every other important bolshevik.


Really this is your argument? To implement any policy, Stalin must be the original thinker of the said policy? Whoever came up with this idea first (debatable in its own regard) is completely and utterly irrelevant here.

To give one example just because Napoleon crushed a royalist revolt using grape shots, it doesn't mean that revolutionaries shouldn't had hanged him or stop the use of grape shot.
#14205862
Yeah they had to work a ton of hours per day while being given starvation rations, just like many of the jews in Auschwitz. Do you know what happens if you expend more calories per day than you get in via food? Over a period of time you will slowly starve to death as many people did in the gulags. These werent norwegian prisons where you get good food, a TV and a nice bed


Sounds like a day in the life of the American lower classes to me.
#14205913
Obesity isn't an argument against the existence of hunger Kman.

Fuser the origins of the idea just aren't irrelevant. It describes his relationship to the party and other members and characterizes who Stalin was, pretty much an opportunist. It's good you bring up Napoleon, he is just like him, a thawing influence. Although, Stalin probably wouldn't destroy the HRE or manage to be at war with everyone, he'd warm up to it and find a comfortable spot in the balance of power.
User avatar
By fuser
#14206233
Conscript wrote:Fuser the origins of the idea just aren't irrelevant. It describes his relationship to the party and other members and characterizes who Stalin was, pretty much an opportunist


And opportunism is "bad" or "evil" in a objective way? Quite a marxist you are and yes the origins of idea are utterly irrelevant here in this particular instance. Stalin or anyone for that matter don't need to personally invent any socio-economical idea in order to implement it.

It's good you bring up Napoleon, he is just like him, a thawing influence. Although, Stalin probably wouldn't destroy the HRE or manage to be at war with everyone, he'd warm up to it and find a comfortable spot in the balance of power.


Way to miss the point, but I will repeat once again just because Napoleon helped revolutionaries in one instance or did something original it doesn't means that he was not a counter revolutionary and should hadn't been hanged and at the same time revolutionaries should not use his original idea just because they hanged them. This is ridiculous to the nth degree but you are doing exactly the same in case of Stalin and Soviet Union which is again just plain ridiculous.

And at to your point which had nothing to do with my parallel between the two revolutions but nevertheless, it is quite obvious that Stalin's stance was umpteenth time better than Napoleon's as by not trying to be compromising, Napoleon spelled nothing but doom for himself and France.

Finally the idealism that your are showing here is precisely the reason for the sorry state of today's communism. Stalin should had not been compromising because of some misplaced idealism and rather should had been more aggressive (or what ever) and jeopardize the only "soviet" state in existence.

Thank marx for marxism not being an idealist bull crap but it hasn't stopped petty idealist to fancy themselves as marxists anyway.

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