- 23 Mar 2008 19:03
#1485332
Ok, let me make something clear first. Nobody here seems really clear about either Chinese history or Tibet history. I copied some of my reply to some post and include more details in it.
1. China never invaded Tibet. Tibet once was a country before 822, but after that year, it has remained as a part of China no matter the change of central Chinese government and which ethnic group leader lead the government. I gave some intermarriage information between Han and Tibet only to show that the integration of Tibet into China is a natural process. By the way, at that time the buddism in Tibet is quite different from now and the religious sect Dalai and Panchen Lama belong to didn't even exist. The interchange of Tibet and Han began even many years before Jesus was born. Tibet and Han are have very close relationship before the integration.
In 641, the King of Tibet married a famous Han princess and Potala Palace in Lhasa was established for her. Because she believed buddism, this religion began to thrive in Tibet. If not for this Han princess, Dalai and Panchen Lama won't even exist. For the next over 200 years, every King of Tibet married a princess from Tang and every king admitted officially he was the son-in-law of Han emperor.
In 821, king of Tibet sent people to the capital of Tang Dynasty and asked to be a part of China.
In 822 and 823, the ambassador from Tang met King of Tibet at Lhasa and agreed that "China and Tibet should be one part". They signed an agreement of integration. This document is well kept in National Library of China.
In 1032, the emperor of Song dynasty had begun to appoint and authorize Tibetan Nobles as the leader of part of Tibet.
In 1271, Tibet became a province of Yuan dynasty. And since then, it has remains as such.
The change of the dynasties of Tang, Song, Yuan, Ming, Qing and Public of China and People's Republic of China is just the change of governments controlling this country of China.
2. Yuan was founded by Mongolian, Kubla Khan, not Han. In 1271, he claimed the title of "Shi Emperor of China". He called himself Chinese. Mogolia and Han are different ethinic groups, but they are all Chinese. The long-lasting rebellions during Yuan dynasty is between Han and Mogolian, not between 2 countries. Yuan dynasty is part of Chinese history.
3. I give a full map of Ming dynasy here:
http://www.sinomaps.com/luntan/non-cgi/ ... 39_121.jpg
During Ming, the prince of Tibet had to be approved and authorized by the emperor of Ming dynasty to be a king of Tibet. Otherwise nobody would admit his position in Tibet. Some of the local officials had to be appointed by the emperor.
4. Qing dynasty was founded by Manchus, another Chinese ethnic group, and continued the administration of Tibet.
In 1652, Dalai Lama went to Beijing to meet the emperor.
In 1653, the title of Dalai Lama was approved and authorized by the emperor.
In 1713, the title of Panchen Lama was approved and authorized by the emperor.
In 1727, the emperor appointed the Governor of Tibet to represent the central government in Beijing.
In 1750, the Governor of Tibet and Dalai Lama governed Tibet together.
5. In 1913, the Governor of Tibet was killed and Dalai Lama claimed he had the power to rule over the whole Tibet with the support from Britain. The British and Dalai Lama regulated Mc Mahon Line to divide the control over Tibet, but the Chinese central government refused to sign the agreement and never recogized the autonomy of Tibet.
Don't tell me British went there for "free trade". Then Tibetan people didn't even understand what "free trade" means. Ye, "Free trade" first, then turned Tibet into 2nd India, just like what they did to India. The british there fighted with the Russians for control over Tibet. They were the invaders to Tibet.
6. For almost 50 years, Chinese from different parties and the westerns from Britain, U.S., France, German, Russia, Japan, Italy, Austria, etc. had been fighting for the control over China after Qing dynasty. At that time, China almost became half colony of the westerns. The most crucial problem during that time was the existence of Chinese, everybody is busy in wars and nobody have time to consider an isolated province like Tibet. As a matter of fact, then China was falling apart, almost every general and every province in China claimed to be independent and fighted for larger territory and cotrol over the whole China.
In 1949, Communists won and founded the People's Republic of China. The new government decided to liberate Tibet peacefully and there was no armed conflicts happened in Tibet.
In 1951, Tibet local government agreed to continue to be a province of China and slaves were liberated. Before 1951, more than 95% of Tibetans were slaves belonged to aristocrats and Lamas. Dalai Lama was the biggest slave owner. He signed the liberation agreement himself.
During that time, Dalai Lama's political position is kind of in the middle because Beijing gave the word to ensure his spiritual position and his personal assets. The only problem was that he wouldn't have the slaves and wouldn't have the right to kill people as his will, but surely he could have servants. But U.S. and Dalai Lama's Nazi private tutor kept on persuading him to leave China. He hesitated for 10 years and finally chose to believe his teacher and left China in 1959.
7. Everybody said if Most Tebetan wanted to be independent, then they had the right to be independent. But where do you get the idea of most Tibetans wanted to be independent? Most Tibetans are still living in Tibet. Do you really believe the opinions of former slave owners are the opinions of most Tibetans? Tibet rioters are not protestants, they are terrorists. Most of them are monks and the decendents of former slave owners.
8. Britain never really gained control over Tibet in history, but it never stopped trying. Tibet is bordered with India and back then India had become the colony of Britain. What do you think the purpose of Britain to do everything to back up Lamas and slave owners in Tibet? For "free trade"? Ye, befriended with slave owners while most Tibetans didn't even understand the meaning of "free". How do you think how the empire on which the sun never sets was founded? Through armed invasion and "free trade". The Britain had wars with Russia to fight for the control over Tibet.
9. Under the 15 dalai lamas less tibetans died due to suppression than in the 50 years of Chinese rule. Slavery and torture still exist in China today.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Ya it's true less tibetans died due to suppression than in the 50 years of Chinese rule, because most Tibetans back then died due to slavery! They were killed by poverty, by heavy labour, by disease and by monks for the religious purpose. And many times they were killed simply for fun or because their masters were in a bad mood. Slavery does not exist in China today, if you don't believe it, come here and see it by yourself. One interesting thing is that I often heard some news that some American teenagers were kept as slaves by some modern American people. In 2007, an investigation report of U.S. teenage sex slaves were submitted to UN by China.
What you watched on TV is only what the government wants you to see, wherever it's in China or in U.S., there's no complete speech freedom in this world. Just yesterday, I was forbidden to log on to another U.S. political forum simply because I posted only 2 videos which were publicized on Youtube. I didn't even post a word. And there are lots of websites about Tibet were blocked since yesterday. I have to say it's some other countries' trick because my friends in China still could log onto those websites. How do you explain this speech freedom here? Why can't these people stand the different voice? Have you ever wondered why so many Chinese, abroad or in China, fight for this unanimously while Chinese government appeared in your media usually did evil things? How could a government with almost no positive appearance in the western media be supported by so many Chinese?
10. In 03/1951, Loy Henderson, the U.S. Ambassador in India, reported to the Director of the Office of South Asian Affairs that he was tring to make U.S. a part of Tibet affairs. He met Heinrich Harrier, a Nazi and private teacher of Dalai Lama, and drafted the letter to encourage Dalai to go abroad. In the letter, he suggested Dalai to transfer money to SriLanka and if he cannot stay there, he was welcomed to U.S. This whole operations are called "Loy Project" and supported by Washington.
Acheson，Dean，then United States Deputy Secretary of State, agreed to provide financial support to Dalai, his supporters and their families. And this financial support from CIA continues today.
11. China spent loads of money in Tibet to make it a better place to live for the local Tibetans.
As for supporting immigration of Han into Tibet, because there's nobody in China, except Tibetans, realy wanted to live in Tibet. It's a poor place with beautiful views, and not everybody can live a life on anoxic plateaux at 3000 to 5000 m. There are lots of works need to be done and trained workers are highly demanded, this is why government encourages people to work there, whatever these people are Han are from other 55 ethnic groups.
And where do you get the idea of local Tibetans being discriminated? As a Chinese living in China for so many years, I have to say Tibetans have lots of priveliges in education, economics, health care, social welfare, etc., which Han would never have. Did you know Tibetans can have as many children as they want while Han can only have one child? Did you know the university entrance line for Tibetans is more than 60% lower than the entrance line for Han students? These are just 2 of many privileges Tibetans have in China.
Besides, many Tibetans hold the high positions in both local and central government and I don't see any Natives hold the similar high positions in any other coutries' government in the world.
As for the nature, development means destroy in some degree, wherever it's in the West or in the East. It happened everyday around the earth. Tibet is a unique place and also a very hard place to live even for the local Tibetans. By the way, most of Tibetans want to stay in Tibet and don't want to move anywhere even though they could achieve a better living elsewhere in China. If I have to choose between poor living with nature well protected and a much better living with slightly-damaged environment, I would go with the latter. After all, people have to live first, then have time and money to worry about other things. That's what the Chinese government is doing.
Besides, there is no employment discrimination to Tibetans exist in China. If you want to do a job, you have to qualify the requirements, right? If you are not qualified, the company has the right to employ somebody else. And it's your responsibility to study or work elsewhere to make yourself skilled and qualified. There are numerous all kinds of colleges, training schools and certificates training courses provided to every people. It's up to youself to learn and nobody can force you.
Talking about environment, everybody knows the western countries like U.S. are doing most of the damages to the environment of the whole earth. There are numerous facts supporting that. You can search by yourself. Please solve these most crucial environmental problems first.
Local tourism is administered by local government. The profit earned from local tourism is used for improving local's living. To limit the number of local guides and collect the entrance fee are to limit the number of foreign and Chinese tourists, which are damaging the local natural and cultural environments, and protect and repair the local cultural sites.
12. If somebody here have really studied the political system in Tibet and in China, (I mean real，independent study, not just read some articles written by some slaveowner-sponsored authors and visit some slaveowner-sponsored websites), you will see Tibet have already been a hightly self-government province. Tibetans have the freedom of religion, expression and voting rights, etc. just like what every Chinese have.
As far as I know, most of the high positions in Tibet provincial government are held by Tibetans. I have never heard of any native people holding such high positions in any other courtries' governments in the world.
13. If indeed Han are the prime victims of the unrest, why not allow western media to investigate it?
-------------------------------------------------------------
What happened in Tibet is something to be solved by Chinese. We can allow the western media to enter in Tibet, we also have the right to deal with our own business without some other strangers' interferences.
As for "investigate it", who gives the right to the western media to investigate something happened in the eastern? And who give you the right to judge? I suppose nobody here is God.
1. China never invaded Tibet. Tibet once was a country before 822, but after that year, it has remained as a part of China no matter the change of central Chinese government and which ethnic group leader lead the government. I gave some intermarriage information between Han and Tibet only to show that the integration of Tibet into China is a natural process. By the way, at that time the buddism in Tibet is quite different from now and the religious sect Dalai and Panchen Lama belong to didn't even exist. The interchange of Tibet and Han began even many years before Jesus was born. Tibet and Han are have very close relationship before the integration.
In 641, the King of Tibet married a famous Han princess and Potala Palace in Lhasa was established for her. Because she believed buddism, this religion began to thrive in Tibet. If not for this Han princess, Dalai and Panchen Lama won't even exist. For the next over 200 years, every King of Tibet married a princess from Tang and every king admitted officially he was the son-in-law of Han emperor.
In 821, king of Tibet sent people to the capital of Tang Dynasty and asked to be a part of China.
In 822 and 823, the ambassador from Tang met King of Tibet at Lhasa and agreed that "China and Tibet should be one part". They signed an agreement of integration. This document is well kept in National Library of China.
In 1032, the emperor of Song dynasty had begun to appoint and authorize Tibetan Nobles as the leader of part of Tibet.
In 1271, Tibet became a province of Yuan dynasty. And since then, it has remains as such.
The change of the dynasties of Tang, Song, Yuan, Ming, Qing and Public of China and People's Republic of China is just the change of governments controlling this country of China.
2. Yuan was founded by Mongolian, Kubla Khan, not Han. In 1271, he claimed the title of "Shi Emperor of China". He called himself Chinese. Mogolia and Han are different ethinic groups, but they are all Chinese. The long-lasting rebellions during Yuan dynasty is between Han and Mogolian, not between 2 countries. Yuan dynasty is part of Chinese history.
3. I give a full map of Ming dynasy here:
http://www.sinomaps.com/luntan/non-cgi/ ... 39_121.jpg
During Ming, the prince of Tibet had to be approved and authorized by the emperor of Ming dynasty to be a king of Tibet. Otherwise nobody would admit his position in Tibet. Some of the local officials had to be appointed by the emperor.
4. Qing dynasty was founded by Manchus, another Chinese ethnic group, and continued the administration of Tibet.
In 1652, Dalai Lama went to Beijing to meet the emperor.
In 1653, the title of Dalai Lama was approved and authorized by the emperor.
In 1713, the title of Panchen Lama was approved and authorized by the emperor.
In 1727, the emperor appointed the Governor of Tibet to represent the central government in Beijing.
In 1750, the Governor of Tibet and Dalai Lama governed Tibet together.
5. In 1913, the Governor of Tibet was killed and Dalai Lama claimed he had the power to rule over the whole Tibet with the support from Britain. The British and Dalai Lama regulated Mc Mahon Line to divide the control over Tibet, but the Chinese central government refused to sign the agreement and never recogized the autonomy of Tibet.
Don't tell me British went there for "free trade". Then Tibetan people didn't even understand what "free trade" means. Ye, "Free trade" first, then turned Tibet into 2nd India, just like what they did to India. The british there fighted with the Russians for control over Tibet. They were the invaders to Tibet.
6. For almost 50 years, Chinese from different parties and the westerns from Britain, U.S., France, German, Russia, Japan, Italy, Austria, etc. had been fighting for the control over China after Qing dynasty. At that time, China almost became half colony of the westerns. The most crucial problem during that time was the existence of Chinese, everybody is busy in wars and nobody have time to consider an isolated province like Tibet. As a matter of fact, then China was falling apart, almost every general and every province in China claimed to be independent and fighted for larger territory and cotrol over the whole China.
In 1949, Communists won and founded the People's Republic of China. The new government decided to liberate Tibet peacefully and there was no armed conflicts happened in Tibet.
In 1951, Tibet local government agreed to continue to be a province of China and slaves were liberated. Before 1951, more than 95% of Tibetans were slaves belonged to aristocrats and Lamas. Dalai Lama was the biggest slave owner. He signed the liberation agreement himself.
During that time, Dalai Lama's political position is kind of in the middle because Beijing gave the word to ensure his spiritual position and his personal assets. The only problem was that he wouldn't have the slaves and wouldn't have the right to kill people as his will, but surely he could have servants. But U.S. and Dalai Lama's Nazi private tutor kept on persuading him to leave China. He hesitated for 10 years and finally chose to believe his teacher and left China in 1959.
7. Everybody said if Most Tebetan wanted to be independent, then they had the right to be independent. But where do you get the idea of most Tibetans wanted to be independent? Most Tibetans are still living in Tibet. Do you really believe the opinions of former slave owners are the opinions of most Tibetans? Tibet rioters are not protestants, they are terrorists. Most of them are monks and the decendents of former slave owners.
8. Britain never really gained control over Tibet in history, but it never stopped trying. Tibet is bordered with India and back then India had become the colony of Britain. What do you think the purpose of Britain to do everything to back up Lamas and slave owners in Tibet? For "free trade"? Ye, befriended with slave owners while most Tibetans didn't even understand the meaning of "free". How do you think how the empire on which the sun never sets was founded? Through armed invasion and "free trade". The Britain had wars with Russia to fight for the control over Tibet.
9. Under the 15 dalai lamas less tibetans died due to suppression than in the 50 years of Chinese rule. Slavery and torture still exist in China today.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Ya it's true less tibetans died due to suppression than in the 50 years of Chinese rule, because most Tibetans back then died due to slavery! They were killed by poverty, by heavy labour, by disease and by monks for the religious purpose. And many times they were killed simply for fun or because their masters were in a bad mood. Slavery does not exist in China today, if you don't believe it, come here and see it by yourself. One interesting thing is that I often heard some news that some American teenagers were kept as slaves by some modern American people. In 2007, an investigation report of U.S. teenage sex slaves were submitted to UN by China.
What you watched on TV is only what the government wants you to see, wherever it's in China or in U.S., there's no complete speech freedom in this world. Just yesterday, I was forbidden to log on to another U.S. political forum simply because I posted only 2 videos which were publicized on Youtube. I didn't even post a word. And there are lots of websites about Tibet were blocked since yesterday. I have to say it's some other countries' trick because my friends in China still could log onto those websites. How do you explain this speech freedom here? Why can't these people stand the different voice? Have you ever wondered why so many Chinese, abroad or in China, fight for this unanimously while Chinese government appeared in your media usually did evil things? How could a government with almost no positive appearance in the western media be supported by so many Chinese?
10. In 03/1951, Loy Henderson, the U.S. Ambassador in India, reported to the Director of the Office of South Asian Affairs that he was tring to make U.S. a part of Tibet affairs. He met Heinrich Harrier, a Nazi and private teacher of Dalai Lama, and drafted the letter to encourage Dalai to go abroad. In the letter, he suggested Dalai to transfer money to SriLanka and if he cannot stay there, he was welcomed to U.S. This whole operations are called "Loy Project" and supported by Washington.
Acheson，Dean，then United States Deputy Secretary of State, agreed to provide financial support to Dalai, his supporters and their families. And this financial support from CIA continues today.
11. China spent loads of money in Tibet to make it a better place to live for the local Tibetans.
As for supporting immigration of Han into Tibet, because there's nobody in China, except Tibetans, realy wanted to live in Tibet. It's a poor place with beautiful views, and not everybody can live a life on anoxic plateaux at 3000 to 5000 m. There are lots of works need to be done and trained workers are highly demanded, this is why government encourages people to work there, whatever these people are Han are from other 55 ethnic groups.
And where do you get the idea of local Tibetans being discriminated? As a Chinese living in China for so many years, I have to say Tibetans have lots of priveliges in education, economics, health care, social welfare, etc., which Han would never have. Did you know Tibetans can have as many children as they want while Han can only have one child? Did you know the university entrance line for Tibetans is more than 60% lower than the entrance line for Han students? These are just 2 of many privileges Tibetans have in China.
Besides, many Tibetans hold the high positions in both local and central government and I don't see any Natives hold the similar high positions in any other coutries' government in the world.
As for the nature, development means destroy in some degree, wherever it's in the West or in the East. It happened everyday around the earth. Tibet is a unique place and also a very hard place to live even for the local Tibetans. By the way, most of Tibetans want to stay in Tibet and don't want to move anywhere even though they could achieve a better living elsewhere in China. If I have to choose between poor living with nature well protected and a much better living with slightly-damaged environment, I would go with the latter. After all, people have to live first, then have time and money to worry about other things. That's what the Chinese government is doing.
Besides, there is no employment discrimination to Tibetans exist in China. If you want to do a job, you have to qualify the requirements, right? If you are not qualified, the company has the right to employ somebody else. And it's your responsibility to study or work elsewhere to make yourself skilled and qualified. There are numerous all kinds of colleges, training schools and certificates training courses provided to every people. It's up to youself to learn and nobody can force you.
Talking about environment, everybody knows the western countries like U.S. are doing most of the damages to the environment of the whole earth. There are numerous facts supporting that. You can search by yourself. Please solve these most crucial environmental problems first.
Local tourism is administered by local government. The profit earned from local tourism is used for improving local's living. To limit the number of local guides and collect the entrance fee are to limit the number of foreign and Chinese tourists, which are damaging the local natural and cultural environments, and protect and repair the local cultural sites.
12. If somebody here have really studied the political system in Tibet and in China, (I mean real，independent study, not just read some articles written by some slaveowner-sponsored authors and visit some slaveowner-sponsored websites), you will see Tibet have already been a hightly self-government province. Tibetans have the freedom of religion, expression and voting rights, etc. just like what every Chinese have.
As far as I know, most of the high positions in Tibet provincial government are held by Tibetans. I have never heard of any native people holding such high positions in any other courtries' governments in the world.
13. If indeed Han are the prime victims of the unrest, why not allow western media to investigate it?
-------------------------------------------------------------
What happened in Tibet is something to be solved by Chinese. We can allow the western media to enter in Tibet, we also have the right to deal with our own business without some other strangers' interferences.
As for "investigate it", who gives the right to the western media to investigate something happened in the eastern? And who give you the right to judge? I suppose nobody here is God.
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