[ninurta]

Tiananmen square? All bbs forums are banned to talk it. Now blogspot has been blocked. It is said 6.4 is coming soon. So I have to stop my blog.

And Tianamen square here are two main views:
1: like you said freedom and democracy
2: for power and wont better than ccp govt becuase they did what ccp did -- violent revolution

You read english there and here people read chinese, newspapers show US is more dangerous.
Even if 87,000 mass protests are true, doesnot it mean govt is very powerful? Because I lived in so many cities and I couldnot detected them. And why you think military is useless? Because protests are good at using knives? (I dunno they are good at or not, that is the only weapon they can use, bomb? that would be advanced )

I am very sure on this, nationalism has a huge market.
Oh, many of you think chinese govt force people to leave their home and treat them badly.
Well, some place yes! But some place no. Beucase some people ask too much -- blackmail. They rely on this for a big fortunate.
For example, we chatted on our school forum a few days ago there was one small shanghai house and it had 88 hukou!!
We think they got some relationship with the police, otherwise how could they put 88 hukou in one single little house.
(That means they would get 88 large houses after the govt use their tinny house)
And there are some abused examples in my city --wuxi. The test means my local govt is very evil. Yes, they do but on this problem
hmmm, many people wish govt pull down their houses. Why I say so, it is easy understand. Think about buying a house is not an easy
stuff in china and most people live in old house, govt pull your house down and give you a new, some need you pay extra money, some not and would give you house and money. Why you anti-it? You love your house and where you live, it is understandable, but when you see the house is extremely shabby, why you wanna stay in it? My grandma got new house by this way. My old house is said to be pull down and many i dunno people moved into my neighbours (wanna get more house and money when these house are pulled down)

No, its not protests if they have weapons and are being violent with or without weapons, that is a riot (or a kind of protest I am not refering to).

It has nothing to do with the usefulness of military nor the powerfulness of government. The prostesters were weaponless.

Actually I am glad people are able to buy better homes, why would I be against that? thats a sign of a very good improvement in china, thats good. How do you like the new house?

I am talking about the corrupted govt people, its not all the government, I dont know what part. Possibly local, or federal, I dont know. But some people were kicked out of their homes and did nothnig wrong, because a corporation wanted to build a building. What you gave as an example is not what I am talking about, you pointed out one of the good things about modern china.

[Igor Antunov]

Even if 10 million people protested during the tiananmen square events, China's population at the time was over 1 billion. It was not a democratic protest. Not everyones voice was included

These were mere internationally inspired dissenters looking to implement foreign influence in their country. Traitors of the highest order.

[ninurta]

Ummm.......do you have evidence? The students who protested, and independant reporters and video images showed what happened. They were pro-communist china, but wanted power to be expanded to an election for the people to vote. That is not dissent, that is consent, the people wanting to choose their communist leaders they supported in the revolution under Mao Zedong.

[Igor Antunov]

The people do get to choose their local representatives, those who's policies and actions affect their immediate lives the most.

If china was like india, it would be paralysed, like india, and a mess, like india. Thankfully China's leaders did what was best for the country as a whole, and not a few students. They did the democratic thing.

[Dave]

They don't even have to be active fifth columnists to be traitors. Seeking to implement wholly unnecessary foreign ideologies for no valid reason is a form of betrayal. I wouldn't call the Tianamen protesters traitors per se, but they were likely influenced by foreign ideas and probably deranged as well. Of course, I am looking at this from the West, and my view is colored by the fact that most protesters here are pathetic losers at best and lunatic traitors at worst.

I've always wondered how severe China's social disorder is. China certainly doesn't have the kind of crime or racial strife that America does, but you don't read in newspapers about imminent social chaos in America. On the other hand China is of course very poor and has many semi-unique cultures, which given the "migrant worker" situation makes for a lot of resentment and anger. There is also severe corruption in China which makes corruption in America look trivial.

Igor makes a good point about India. India is a shithole compared to China, and has far more fissures for conflict to coalesce around. In addition to similar issues with abused workers, India has much more poverty, it has endemic Hindu-Muslim violence and hatred, it has caste conflict, and it has racial conflict as well. Yet India hasn't collapsed, and I really don't think democracy has anything to do with it (most people don't care about voting).

[ninurta]

The people do get to choose their local representatives, those who's policies and actions affect their immediate lives the most.

same with India, except with voting for the leader. What difference does it really make to make India less stable if they vote for national leaders?

If china was like india, it would be paralysed, like india, and a mess, like india. Thankfully China's leaders did what was best for the country as a whole,

Yeah, like kick people out of their houses to give their homes to expanding corporations, destroy farmland to build buisnesses. Becuase making people homeless to benefit the middle class and treating their people who disagree, or even agree with them and support non-dear-leader ideals like crap is so good for the country as a whole. It makes people love their country more, and poverty so makes a country greater, especially homelessness.

and not a few students. They did the democratic thing.

A few students, have you ever read about Tianenmen square? Alot more than a few students. And the protests are not limited to students, let alone to 1989 nor beijing.

As for India, its not democracy that causes its problems, its extreme poverty, political corruption, inter-religious conflict and a mix of problems.

If it weren't for Democracy, we wouldn't even know what goes on there. China is in the same situation, but the inter-religious thing is only a minor issue, there is most of the same problems in both India and in China, so I don't see how China has done its people better.

[Watermoon]

A few students, have you ever read about Tianenmen square? Alot more than a few students. And the protests are not limited to students,

ninurta, due to chinese population, it is a few. Sudents didnot get the support of workers and peasants -- they are the major of China. It also happend in shanghai, but shanghai dealt it better than beijing. What I think is our govt should apologize. I guess it wont be mentioned because of those carriers are still in power and chinese love "face" and hard to ask chinese to apologize, this character also presents on the govt behavior.

[ninurta]

ninurta, due to chinese population, it is a few. Sudents didnot get the support of workers and peasants -- they are the major of China. It also happend in shanghai, but shanghai dealt it better than beijing. What I think is our govt should apologize. I guess it wont be mentioned because of those carriers are still in power and chinese love "face" and hard to ask chinese to apologize, this character also presents on the govt behavior.

No, a few means not alot, it doesn't mean a small percentage. Was the protesters a small percentage of chinese people as you say or mean? Yes, but thats not the point. The point is that they were punished for a peaceful protest and asking for freedom of speech and press, and democracy, they were not agaisnt the chinese government at all. Thats why they wanted peaceful change, and thats why they had a peaceful protest, just to get the attention of the government.

I don't know that your government should apologise, no one would probably accept it. Nothing agaisnt them, I just don't think those involved would accept it and those not involved and who were uninformed would care less or not know what they are talking about. The chinese people want to be free, not to get rid of communist nor the regime. Even if they can't elect their leaders, they at least deserve the basic freedoms that they want like speech, religion, press, etc......

[Watermoon]

The point is that they were punished for a peaceful protest and asking for freedom of speech and press, and democracy, they were not agaisnt the chinese government at all. Thats why they wanted peaceful change, and thats why they had a peaceful protest, just to get the attention of the government.

I am not sure depending on situation at that time. They hit the and hurt the military first -- again I am not sure, I've just heard some people in beijing said this. The vedio was banned in China, but if you really wanna watch them, you can make some tricks on your computer and watch them on youtubo. You might say how they could hit and hurt the military first becuase they were peaceful and no amry. It happened in Tibet not that long ago. Also the western media said the chinese govt crashed down the tibet.But my brother went to Tibet with his american students and what they saw: no guns miliatry then the american students laughed at military policemen -- paper tiger.
Anyway, I think even they didnot hit the militaty first, they would be crashed down. Becuase leader Deng at that time was fighting for getting power to rule China and he wanted to change Maoism policy -- what he then did to China. Those students invloved in would be an good excuse for anti-Deng power got power.

I don't know that your government should apologise, no one would probably accept it.

US ever did the same thing to students. But US govt apologise.

Even if they can't elect their leaders, they at least deserve the basic freedoms that they want like speech, religion, press, etc......

It has changed a lot now. But it not the tiananmen students fought and got, if now it happened again, I think nowadays freedom would lose. I might be banned on PoFo.

[ninurta]

They became violent when the government shot at them, to be honest, if i was going to be shot or arrested for just speaking my mind, I would go from peaceful protest to violent too. It was after they starting firing at them that they began to over turn cars and stuff and be violent. Not before, thats kind of pointless if you want to get someones good attention.

The problem with Tibet is is a little bit too complicated for a simple assessment. I don't know the whole story of what happened to the tibetans, but I know how they went under chinese rule. Mao Zedong's regime saved them from the Dlai Lama that is now preaching happiness, peace and freedom. Even though thats not what he preached in his feudalist kingdom where only he and a few others knew what shangri-la was.

As for Deng, who is that?

[Watermoon]

Deng xiao ping, he changed China, today's policy is according to his.

[chuuzetsu]

Deng xiao ping, he changed China, today's policy is according to his.

It was under his rule that the Gang of Four were put to trial and sentenced.

[Okonkwo]

It was under his rule that the Gang of Four were put to trial and sentenced.

One more reason to venerate the man.

[Watermoon]

One more reason to venerate the man.

But he is also infamous because of Tiananmen students killed. Okonkwo, there was a very famous ( ranked in one of the greatest emperors in Chinese history) he killed his brother(actually he would be a good emperor too) and took the power ( as rule, his brother should be the emperor) and become the emperor. He's bad on this issue, but people praised him a lot becuase under his rule, people lives good.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Shimin

[Okonkwo]

Yes, everybody makes a mistake at some point and - unlike the Emperors of old - Deng Xiaoping doesn't claim divinity, so he's just a human being.
Without his reforms and his opening up China would still be a poor third world country. His guidance was exactly what the People's Republic needed to advance and to compete with other nations on the world stage.

That's his major accomplishment and lasting legacy, I am willing to overlook such controversial issues as Tiananmen for that achievement.

[Watermoon]

But today many people think his policy is worse. Because under Mao's rule, there was no corruption. Most of today's officials are uneducated, they were all peasants. During Cultural Revolution, none studied or learnt anything. All are illiteracy. And there is no hope for them to rule China well, even change the officials. more or less, the same. Hope this generation will make China better.

[101online]

Most of today's officials are uneducated, they were all peasants.

Not true, many officials today have high education.

[Watermoon]

Not true, many officials today have high education.

You mean local officials? Or you mean largely officials? The centre leaders got high educated but still, from peasants or workers families. Now Xi jing ping would take the power, he is from middle-class.

[ninurta]

The same guy who freed the tibetans cracked down on Tianenmen square? Interesting.

Well as above said, even the best of leaders make mistakes, maybe his misunderstanding the students was the mistake. But they did study, and most of the protests were through the summer and ended (I think) in the fall. At least thats what I was taught. Though we are getting somewhat offtopic here.

[Watermoon]

It is common in Chinese history. Killing different idea group, it is so-called one mountain couldnot hold two tigers. But now I want to have election right, and I will support this idea online. People here often talk about election rights.