[Timkunming]

Dave, this was essentially my point. I apologize if I didn't make my point clearer.
This authoritarian government works quite well for China the moment, even under the weight of crippling bureaucracy
and thorough corruption. The real test to Chinese Socialism will be whether or not they can sustain this incredible economic growth, while
at the same time further developing the undeveloped western provinces.

Nearly every dynasty was overthrown because of rural unrest...and the CCP came to power under the support of the peasants. It seems
the current standing committee realizes this. It's just a matter of whether or not they can actually go forward with further reforms.

[corleniet]

However, whether or not that authoritarian government must take the form of the current Communist Party is another question altogether. While the CCP has proven able to bring hundreds of millions of people out of poverty,
=================
Deng Xiaoping had said, if the Gap between the Rich and the Poor in China grows too large,there will be a problem in our country, China will be unrest.
He is full of wisdom. Nowadays Chinese ppl is talk about the Gap between the Rich and the Poor.


it has done so by making many of the rural workers participate in slave-like labor conditions, often without any
sort of payment guarantee, and little to no insurance in case of injury, death, etc.
==============
It's ture,China's improve did much sacrifices.,maybe the method is controversy,but do you have more wise way to do it?

In fact we have been the victim of the CCP for the past six decades much more so than to any other
foreign power in history.
=======================
Firstly,because media has improve and better than anyone in history.
Second reason is China is a potential enemy to US in many people eyes.


I would prefer a system much more in line with Singapore's system. That is, quite authoritarian and "strict" in some cases, but only for those that benefit the population as a whole, and not for the interests of the only viable political party in the country.
============
Small country may need some extrem way.But China is a big country,and many people lack of quality,it's not fit China. And why do you western countries learn from China? That what you should think.

[Locke13]

Democracy simply doesn't work in China cause we're simply smarter then you. (yes we are). There will be huge power struggles.

Look at how democracy in Thailand turned out. Thaksin was charged for corruption, exiled, and now thailand is under turmoil again. I'm sure the US would be very happy to see that happen in China.

From my point of view (and yes, i have no evidence), democracy is only working in singapore cause of its small area. There's no danger of any separatist groups for obvious reasons. China simply can;t keep things under control if democracy is introduced. Its a tenuous relationship right now but China's managing. The only looming problem is probably the threat of corruption which may effect future leaderships.

If you want to see how democracy works in China, just look at Taiwan. Fights in the parliament everyday? People throwing stuff at each other? It's a joke. The sensible half of Taiwan are already sick of those politicians and have turned Pro china.

The US is a special case. WHere else can you find people watching, or even COMPETING for gods sake in shows like "are you smarter then a fifth grader? And hence, peace prevails.

and corleniet, you're my hero.

democracy is ridiculous. The radically and root cause is the fool decide who will be their leader,the leader who need much wisdom and ability that fool never has or even understand. how do they vote?

I have to applaud this quote.

[DarkInsight]

Democracy won't work in China because someone has been telling you so for decades.

My country, Malaysia , is just south of Thailand, both of them are either just went through or are going through political turmoils. Personally I see nothing wrong with it. It is only through conflict that we can solve controversies and disagreement. Hiding problems under the carpet and pretending it never exists aren't gonna solve the problem. Pretending that there is no corruption won't solve the problems.

Yes, democracy doesn't guarantee you would always get an omniscient "patriarch-like" ruler, but it does guarantee the people a mean to get him down if he proves to be bad at his job. How else shall we guarantee the quality of our public servant?
By depending on their conscience, or hoping that we would get a 包青天(an ancient chinese officer famous for his impartiality)-like officer?

Yes ,democracy is not perfect, sometimes you just happen to get a really bad card. Sometimes people are fooled by propaganda and state-control medias, but you can always get access to a "different voice",something which found only in a multi-party system.
Yes, there are times when democracy simply sucks, when the politicians are busying with their political struggle and people are misguided. And yet totalitarian is hardly an alternative. It is worse.
Democracy is like picking while shopping for vegetables or fruits, sometimes you pick wrongly, but claiming not choosing > chossing is just ridiculous.

And your claiming democracy is only working in Singapore and actually find a reason for it is just ridiculous.
Because lots of democracy are working steadily in countries bigger than Singapore. And about Taiwan, I think we all agree Chen Shui Bian is a doing poorly as a president right? Imagine he holds a lifelong term or he simply won't step down, scary eh?

[corleniet]

In short,there is no dictatorship and democracy,there is just two endpoint,centralization and division of power.


the different of two is lever.In history, the Hereditary Rule makes dictator cannot ensure the capable successor

[Vigil of Reason]

And about Taiwan, I think we all agree Chen Shui Bian is a doing poorly as a president right? Imagine he holds a lifelong term or he simply won't step down, scary eh?

First of all, Chen is not the president anymore. And it would be impossible for him to stay much longer, especially with the financial crisis. All the pan-blues would cause a riot and probably assassinate him (look at how many people were at the Depose Chen "Red Shirt" Demonstration).

In short,there is no dictatorship and democracy,there is just two endpoint,centralization and division of power.

There could be a centralized democracy where people vote for a national/federal government, resulting in democratically-elected dictators in control of everything.

In history, the Hereditary Rule makes dictator cannot ensure the capable successor

Dictators are not only sons of dictators. And democracy (or your division of power) cannot ensure the capable successor either.

[corleniet]

I mean most times we talk about democracy is mean division of power,independent censorate.

of course,people could choose a dictator like hitler use democratic process

[Locke13]

And about Taiwan, I think we all agree Chen Shui Bian is a doing poorly as a president right? Imagine he holds a lifelong term or he simply won't step down, scary eh?

I must admit, that is a very good point. But it's not foolproof either. It just shows how messed up democracy is in Asia, and the fact that the fool was elected twice shows exactly the kind of idiots democracy gives power too. The nation of China collectively slapped their hands to their foreheads and shook their heads in dissappointment when he came to power that second time.

My country, Malaysia , is just south of Thailand, both of them are either just went through or are going through political turmoils. Personally I see nothing wrong with it. It is only through conflict that we can solve controversies and disagreement. Hiding problems under the carpet and pretending it never exists aren't gonna solve the problem. Pretending that there is no corruption won't solve the problems.

Then's you're shortsighted. Get some glasses. Is there "nothing wrong" with a coup, followed by a protest that clogged up the whole airport? Malaysia's such a underdevloped country because of its bad governing. Is that not a problem either? Will i suppose it isn't for you. I don't even understand how the second part of your sentence relates to anything.What problems are you refering too? The problem is democracy.

And your claiming democracy is only working in Singapore and actually find a reason for it is just ridiculous.

Lets see, one nation, which happens to be less than the size of an ant on the map, that has a working democracy system out of the entire south east asia nation. Doesn't that say something?

Because lots of democracy are working steadily in countries bigger than Singapore

Does "work" in your case ignore economical instability, low living standards, unemployment, slow economic growth, low gdp?

Yes ,democracy is not perfect, sometimes you just happen to get a really bad card. Sometimes people are fooled by propaganda and state-control medias, but you can always get access to a "different voice",something which found only in a multi-party system.
Yes, there are times when democracy simply sucks, when the politicians are busying with their political struggle and people are misguided. And yet totalitarian is hardly an alternative. It is worse.
Democracy is like picking while shopping for vegetables or fruits, sometimes you pick wrongly, but claiming not choosing > chossing is just ridiculous.

This shows your ignorance. Do you honestly think people in china live within a brick wall? They have the internet and as firewalled as it may be people can still get outside news. Do you honestly believe we sit around watching cctv all day? I actually live in Hong Kong and i have a good idea of whats working and not within China

[Vigil of Reason]

I must admit, that is a very good point. But it's not foolproof either. It just shows how messed up democracy is in Asia, and the fact that the fool was elected twice shows exactly the kind of idiots democracy gives power too. The nation of China collectively slapped their hands to their foreheads and shook their heads in dissappointment when he came to power that second time.

Please do not call the sly Chen an idiot, or you would also be insulting everyone who has not yet managed to successfully charge him for anything. He was not terrible simply as a president, being that he did not do anything useful or harmful other than cause some tension across the Strait. And since Taiwan is part of China, the zealot people who voted for him would negate your statement about "all of China" slapping their foreheads.

About how he actually came to power in the first place, it was all a mistake on the part of some KMT members. The two KMT people who ran independently split the KMT-supporters' votes into two (sort of like what happened with Gore and Bush and Nader in Florida). The second time Chen was elected, was mostly because of that 319 gunning incident. This got some sympathy votes from swing voters. The first time is not really a case against democracy but against more than two parties. The second just shows how people need to be more educated and not be swayed by a minor scrape on the stomach of Chen.

[DarkInsight]

First of all, Chen is not the president anymore. And it would be impossible for him to stay much longer, especially with the financial crisis. All the pan-blues would cause a riot and probably assassinate him (look at how many people were at the Depose Chen "Red Shirt" Demonstration).

Reread my post, and please do take note of the word "imagine".

[Vigil of Reason]

please do take note of the word "imagine".

I did imagine and figured he could not stay in power for long.

[DarkInsight]

I must admit, that is a very good point. But it's not foolproof either. It just shows how messed up democracy is in Asia, and the fact that the fool was elected twice shows exactly the kind of idiots democracy gives power too. The nation of China collectively slapped their hands to their foreheads and shook their heads in dissappointment when he came to power that second time.

And does authoritarian never get a terrible leader? And what should you do under an authoritarian system if you do get a terrible leader?
I have said it and I will repeat it here again, democracy is not perfect, it DOES give you a terrible leader sometimes, but the point is that every leader will not hold indefinitely great power and has a limit upon his term as long as the democracy is working.
And as a clarification, I never said democracy is foolproof. It is not.

How about Mao? Million people starving would usually cost any democratically-elected leader his power. Is he held responsible for this tragedy? Did he step down?

Then's you're shortsighted. Get some glasses. Is there "nothing wrong" with a coup, followed by a protest that clogged up the whole airport? Malaysia's such a underdevloped country because of its bad governing. Is that not a problem either? Will i suppose it isn't for you. I don't even understand how the second part of your sentence relates to anything.What problems are you refering too? The problem is democracy.

Please tell me, how many people die during the coup. Is there a civil war? The military coup of Thailand has some of the most extraordinary political feature that it would be best for both of us not to give any comment before we study on it. For example, please do take note how the military return the power to the king after every coup. And about the "problem", please do some study on the incident, at least find out of what charges Thaksin has been accused.

And have you ever been to Malaysia? Yes, there is bad governing, bad planning and corruption among the ruling party, but this is EXACTLY my point? IF Malaysia IS an authoritarian country, how do we fix these problems? Praying the corrupted officers somehow has a turn of heart and found their conscience?

Lets see, one nation, which happens to be less than the size of an ant on the map, that has a working democracy system out of the entire south east asia nation. Doesn't that say something?

Does "work" in your case ignore economical instability, low living standards, unemployment, slow economic growth, low gdp?

Well, if you did visit SEA, I think you will find your opinion changed. Personally I am a little bemused that a Chinese found my country underdeveloped, granted Malaysia is facing alot of problems since Mahathir retired.
And fyi, a lot of "democratic" countries in SEA including Singapore aren't exactly a fully-grown up democratic country, since many of them haven't experienced a change of power as stated in The Third Wave: Democratization in the Late Twentieth Century by Samuel P. Huntington. Don't you think it is a bit ridiculous claiming birds cannot fly by studying an undergrown chick?

This shows your ignorance. Do you honestly think people in china live within a brick wall? They have the internet and as firewalled as it may be people can still get outside news. Do you honestly believe we sit around watching cctv all day? I actually live in Hong Kong and i have a good idea of whats working and not within China

Did I accuse the China people of anything? I am merely illustrated how democracy works. My whole point is,democracy IS NOT perfect, but it is still much better than an authoritarian mono-party system.
Actually you are lucky to be in Hong Kong, whereas the Mainlander would have hard time getting access to some books,medias and etc. I lived in Nanjing for five years too.

[Locke13]

Please do not call the sly Chen an idiot, or you would also be insulting everyone who has not yet managed to successfully charge him for anything.

a joke?? I'm expecting some sort of justification for what you wrote

He was not terrible simply as a president, being that he did not do anything useful or harmful other than cause some tension across the Strait.

Agreed. Totally harmless except create a load of trouble for the CHinese government and a new wave of separatist feelings that could have led to possible war, but i suppose that means nothing to a malaysian who is oh so proud of malaysia's rank as an international player.

The second just shows how people need to be more educated and not be swayed by a minor scrape on the stomach of Chen.

as well as the kind of idiots who we give our power to.

How about Mao? Million people starving would usually cost any democratically-elected leader his power. Is he held responsible for this tragedy? Did he step down?

I assure you that our government would drag the next chairman in the middle of the night and shoot him should he allow the whole of china to starve again.

I have said it and I will repeat it here again, democracy is not perfect, it DOES give you a terrible leader sometimes, but the point is that every leader will not hold indefinitely great power and has a limit upon his term as long as the democracy is working.

do you even know ANYTHING
about CHina? Are you crazy? Is Hu Jin Tao going to rule until his death? Honestly why are you even in this forum? From what i can see you don't even know the basic facts about China that gives you a right to give your opinions, not when you still think CCP = Mao Ze Dong

And have you ever been to Malaysia? Yes, there is bad governing, bad planning and corruption among the ruling party, but this is EXACTLY my point? IF Malaysia IS an authoritarian country, how do we fix these problems? Praying the corrupted officers somehow has a turn of heart and found their conscience?

I think its more accurate to turn around and say that It is a democracy and it STILL has these promises. Honestly from reading your last comment i've lost faith in whether you know what you're saying.

For example, please do take note how the military return the power to the king after every coup. And about the "problem", please do some study on the incident, at least find out of what charges Thaksin has been accused.

I don't even understand what you're trying to say about the king. As for the charges, "corruption." what else are you trying to say? Whats your point?

And fyi, a lot of "democratic" countries in SEA including Singapore aren't exactly a fully-grown up democratic country

Oh, so you're saying that Singapore is developed BECAUSE it isn't a "fully-grown up democratic country" now?

Actually you are lucky to be in Hong Kong, whereas the Mainlander would have hard time getting access to some books,medias and etc.

Hey! I'm the china man here. I've lived in CHina and Hong Kong and i think that i would know whether or not i am "ACTUALLY LUCKY" to be living in hong kong.

[Vigil of Reason]

How about Mao? Million people starving would usually cost any democratically-elected leader his power. Is he held responsible for this tragedy? Did he step down?

Mao never had complete control over CCP, with a lot of power struggle going on within the party. And yes, no one denies Mao is chiefly responsible for the Great Leap. And also yes, Mao stepped down when he died.

a joke?? I'm expecting some sort of justification for what you wrote

Chen is only in custody right now, and attempts to charge him were so far unsuccessful.

Totally harmless except create a load of trouble for the CHinese government and a new wave of separatist feelings that could have led to possible war,

All the "wave of separatist feelings" were started long before he was elected, and was a cause and not a result of him being president. And again this shows how the lack of education, and not democracy, could make people to become racist against themselves and wish for a "Nation of Taiwan".

do you even know ANYTHING

Please refrain from ad hom attacks as it shows incompetence in debating skills, or at least be more subtle about it.

[Terrik]

How about Mao? Million people starving would usually cost any democratically-elected leader his power. Is he held responsible for this tragedy? Did he step down?

Technically, yes. He stepped down as the State Chairman of the PRC because he feared he would take the blame for the GLF.

And again this shows how the lack of education, and not democracy, could make people to become racist against themselves and wish for a "Nation of Taiwan".

Yeah, I'm not getting what you're saying here. Chinese living in Taiwan are becoming racist against themselves because they want a nation of their own, in essence denying "who they are" and being racist against themselves because they want to be separate from China? Perhaps I'm either misreading it, or I'm missing it completely here。

[Vigil of Reason]

Yeah, I'm not getting what you're saying here. Chinese living in Taiwan are becoming racist against themselves because they want a nation of their own, in essence denying "who they are" and being racist against themselves because they want to be separate from China? Perhaps I'm either misreading it, or I'm missing it completely here。

That is exactly what I meant. I could also add that they are being traitorous to the ROC. This is not any specific person's fault, as there is just too little patriotic indoctrination in the public schools now. They do not start teaching about the Three Principles until high school! (And I like your bizarre usage of a Chinese period at the end.)

[chaochao]

why some people said China doesn't have democracy, we have our socialism democracy, the only problem is that we are always testing and finding a method how to implement it better.

[Locke13]

When you think Chen Shui Bian should be given credit for deluding those prosecuting him, when you refuse to see how the China is run under a government that no longer completely follows communist principles, when you think chinese citizens still live under the repressive shadow of Mao Ze Dong, when you think a large country like China would give up and change to a democratic system and follow the failures of Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, and other south east asian countries, there is no room for debate.

[Vigil of Reason]

When you think Chen Shui Bian should be given credit for deluding those prosecuting him

I did not say he should be given credit, just that he is sly in a bad way. Being sly in a bad way does not, I think, deserve any credit.

there is no room for debate.

No, it means your point won, except for the part about Chen.

[Tailz]

of course,people could choose a dictator like hitler use democratic process

Communism produces terrible leaders as well, such as Stalin. Then during the Second World War, Mao spent more time fighting the Nationalists than the Japanese - plus his Great Leap Forward plan resulted in major problems too (not to mention his Cult of Personality).

No political system is without its faults and despotic leaders. To think that China is immune to this when compared to other states, is folly.