[Panderlate_Politics]

Taiwan. Ok. I am surprised I have not found any topics about Taiwan.

Well, let's see. My first two posts ever on this site was extremely long, I'll make this one a bit shorter. But for my future posts they will be extremely long compared to this.

As I have mentioned in my earlier posts, I have Chinese heritage and 100% Chinese blood in me, that is why I feel a sense of nationalism towards China, even though I am still patriotic towards America. However, I still feel the governments of those two countries mispresent the real America, or the real China, something I will post a topic about some time later.

Ok, but to the real topic. Taiwan. I hope I'm not representing the "hate" ideology but I definitely hate Chen Shui Bian and his fucked up Taiwan Independence move. Fuck Chen Shui Bian. Fuck Taiwan Independence move. The world will not recongnize Taiwan anything more than an island off shore mainland China.

Him getting shot, that whole sequence is just amazing. How in the world does he get shot, goes into the hospital talking on his cell and people following him, then goes and do surgery while still talking on the cell. After that he jokes with his wife and cracks up another joke with the surgeons. The government must have been bribed, and it's setup that the people are sympathetic towards Chen Shui Bian, so that was how he won. In fact, 7 out of 10 Taiwanese people beleived that the gun shooting incident was fake, so I'm sorry. What is 10-7? Simply arithmetic math. It's 3! That means, on average 30% of the people wants him back as president. So how in the bloody hell does he still come up re-elected as president. Fucked up votes.

Him and Lee Teng Hui are such fucking bastards. Taiwan Independence move has no cry for itself. It's just like saying, should Hawaii gain independence from the United States. What the dumbfuck. I absolutely have no feeling for these Tibetian and Taiwanese Independence moves, because do they really think that China is that easy to "bully". Surely Taiwan doesn't want to start a war do they?

Let's think this through, does ANY country want to fight on Taiwan's side? Probably the only country I think of is the dumbfuck government of Costa Rica. Lol. Why doesn't anyone wanna fight on Taiwan's side? I'm sorry, who's their opposition? China? Hell no way to fight. China has the largest army in the world, and their weapons are so strong that you don't want to mess with them. It's just like saying, should we go invade United States? No difference. There is no other way for Taiwan to win this war unless 1,000 earthquakes occur in China during the war. Even God isn't on Taiwan's side because the "war" preparations look more like a comedy act when you analyze and examine this deeply.

Taiwan is nothing more than an island to which China has extended their grace graciously on. One country, two system. Yes, I dislike the Chinese government and I call for a Chinese revolution, but that does not stop Taiwan to leave China. Taiwan IS China, that's the final line. Usually, with all the multiple governments in the long and stretched Chinese history of 5000 years, considering it was the Qin Shi Huang who actually unified China in around 3000 years ago, you cannot find any type of grace shown to a rebellious land like the modern China towards Taiwan has. From Qin Shi Huang all the way down to Mao Ze Dong, none would have been so lenient towards a land that is trying to proclaim independence. I wonder if Mao Ze Dong was still alive(wow then he must be 111 years old), how he would have reacted towards Chen Shui Bian and asshole Lee Teng Hui. Taiwan has forgotten what had happened when the KMT were kicked out, and even if he belongs to the DPP. Motherfucking son of a bitch. Did he forget where his ancestors came from?

No matter how much of an American patriot I may be(although I despise the American governement also), I shall never forget where my ancestors came from. From my motherland, China.

So fuck Taiwan's Independence stand, and no, this scenario is totally different from the way America splitted from Britain as the Americans were being harshly treated, while the Taiwanese right now are treated what I believe is already "over-lennient". How can these rascals still not be satisfied. Someone answer me please.

I hate Chen Shui Bian. Taiwan is ALWAYS China. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS. This matter is my business, and so it should be the 1.5 billion Chinese scattered across the globe, for I'm Chinese, and what?

---------Long Live China, CHANGE YOUR GOVERNMENT for crying out loud-----------------------------

As for Taiwan, uhh, you guys don't even have a legitimate government. Far worse off than China. The Chinese run your damn economy. Be thankful for it.

Do not include disclaimers or ALL CAPS in thread titles.

[Boondock Saint]

In fact, 7 out of 10 Taiwanese people beleived that the gun shooting incident was fake, so I'm sorry. What is 10-7? Simply arithmetic math. It's 3! That means, on average 30% of the people wants him back as president.

Thats an interesting deduction you made there ...

First off ... where is the evidence supporting that 70% of the population believes it was a fake (assassination attempt)?

Second - how does that (if true) prove that only 30% of the population wants him to be president?

One has nothing to do with the other ...

As for Taiwan and China ... Taiwan isnt the upstart rebel, China is ... your correct in saying that the US/UK thing is not like this ... I agree. This would be more akin to some rebel movement in mainland USA and the current gov't moving to Hawaii in hopes to escape the rebels ...

The rebels may take over the mainland but in the end they are still the rebels.

[Yeddi]

The rebels may take over the mainland but in the end they are still the rebels.

True.
Remember, The island of Taiwan was never formally given back to China, it was given to Japan in a peace treaty in 1895, so really, the PRC has no claim over it at all.

[tragicclown]

Tiawan is nationally chinese, ruled by a dictatorship from the revolution to 2001 that insisted it would reconquer mainland china. Tiawan's government was built by the looting of the Chinese treasury when the Kuomintang was retreating.

The rebels may take over the mainland but in the end they are still the rebels.

Conventionally, the faction that controls the capital city is the government and the faction that controls other territory are the rebels. The Communists became the government when the Kuomintang fled. Moreover all serious states including the US recognize the PRC as the government and the ROC as the rebels by way of their diplomatic recognition.

[Panderlate_Politics]

Thats an interesting deduction you made there ...

First off ... where is the evidence supporting that 70% of the population believes it was a fake (assassination attempt)?
--Boondock Saint

Ever heard of the word, exaggeration? I did kind of exaggerate, because as you know, there was no public poll conducted among the Taiwanese to survery them if they believed in the assassination attempt. However, what is true though is that I was reading the papers, one writer said that the day after Chen Shui Bitch was "shot", he took a cab home. Along the cab ride, the driver told him that 10 passengers he took earlier, 7 of them believed Chen Shui Bitch getting 'shot" was just bullshit.

One of the top Chinese inspectors, and yes, in our culture, this man is considered as a legendary figure. He claimed that nobody is such an idiot to go shoot his stomach. No matter how much you missed, there is no way on bloody earth that it would reach the stomach. The reason is that the assasination attempt was conducted in a near-range shooting, meaning that if the guy did badly miss Chen Shui Bitch, the most he would do is probably shoot his chest. This inspector reviewed all previous gun assassination attempts and successful ones, all the way from Abraham Lincolhn, Adolf Hitler, John F. Kennedy, Ronald Reegan, to name a few, and he has not seen something as bizzare as Chen Shui Bitch's failed assasination attempt. I do not know the exact details about why he believed that Chen obviously setup the whole thing because I don't know a lot of technailities about assassinating, but what I can say is that, based on this top-class inspector, many people respect his views, and when he claims that something is false, most Chinese would follow his views. He is highly regarded in the Chinese society, just like perhaps, in America, the defense minister(for example) is regarded highly over.

True.
Remember, The island of Taiwan was never formally given back to China, it was given to Japan in a peace treaty in 1895, so really, the PRC has no claim over it at all.
--Yeddi

Firstly, I don't give a fuck about the PRC, and yes, even they may be the current ruling government of China(which is sad), I don't care. What I do know is that when the Gong Chan Dang, or known to the Westerners as the Chinese Communist party, drove the nationalists, the Kuo Min Tang(KMT) out of China into Taiwan(formerly known as the island of Formosa).

You may be right that nothing official was written to give the government claims over Taiwan, but there was a treaty signed somewhere around March to June 1949, where officially declaring the PRC, and the KMT taking over Taiwan. The peace treaty ended the Chinese civil war, and I believe the document states that the "Republic of China"(Taiwan), is subject to Chinese rule, although the Gong Chan Dang acknowledged the fact that the KMT would rule Taiwan differently.

But for China's sake, it's called Republic of CHINA, not Republic of Taiwan, therefore, you would have to say it's officially part of China. I don't give a shit about both sets of governments, but all I know that Taiwan is China. Period. You would not include China in your title if you wanted to have an independent country. When North Korea did that, yes, South Korea did recognize their independence and allowed North korea to use the word "Korea" at the back of their name. I simply cannot think of any other examples, although North and Republic of Ireland would be another geniuine example. Again though, both sets of governments recognized the titles, and while the Taiwanese used "Republic of China", they clearly understood that they would still be part of China, as the KMT did not proclaim independence themselves, nor would Mao's newly formed government give them that either.


Sure, you have democracy(somewhat democracy) in Taiwan now, otherwise you wouldn't have assholes like Chen Shui Bitch around would you? However, the only difference is, you can't just go change the titles without China approving it, since they had been part of China through calling themselves, Republic of China earlier, and like I said earlier, this title did not give them the right for independence, but more to demonstrate China's ideas of One Country, Two Systems. If not, Taiwan would have fought for independence earlier when the two seperate systems were being formed. As for the Taiwan now, they can't claim independence on their own without China's approval, and unfortunately, China is never going to approve. If Taiwan insists this way, then it could only lead to war. I believe the Americans are not that idiotic to fight against the Chinese if a war does occur, which would only mean that the Chinese will crush the Taiwanese. How can it go a different way?! Hopefully, there won't be war, and that's if Chen Shui Bitch doesn't get re-elected, which he did cheaply.


Remember, ROC. There's still China. They are still part of China. Republic of Taiwan does not even exist.

Taiwan(corrected from Tiawan) is nationally chinese, ruled by a dictatorship from the revolution to 2001 that insisted it would reconquer mainland china. Tiawan's(damn, TragicClown, can you even spell TAIWAN right?) government was built by the looting of the Chinese treasury when the Kuomintang was retreating.
--TragicClown

Ok. I didn't get what you said, well maybe cause I'm Chinese, so I don't understand your perspective. Whatever.

Anyway, talk about dictatorship. This new government is more like dictatorship. Sorry, but Lee Teng Hui set up a dictatorship-style government for his motherfuckers, such as Chen Shui Bitch. Technically, it's still democracy since people now get to vote. However, the government is corrupted, there's bogus within the government. Chen Shui Bitch is guaranteed to win, and his followers also.


Someone remove Chen Shui Bitch, and no, there are a lot of Anti-Chen Shui Bitch people, scattered across Taiwan. Otherwise, you wouldn't have that many protesters, even right now as I type, still sitting outside the government houses protesting. It has already been a few days in a row, and I feel really sympathetic towards them. Maybe none of you will do, but again, I'm Chinese, I can understand their feelings.

Yes, being a Chinese means that I look to this incident totally different than you people. We generally have a very unique and prideful attribute, and being an American patriot at the same time, I know that the nationalism I feel towards China, and the pride of the Chinese people is totally different from being patriotic to America. No, I'm definitely not degrading American patriots, I mean, why would I? That would mean I'd be degrading myself. What the fuck, hell no. If you could, go ask some nationalistic Chinese who are also American patriots, find them in Chinatown, in San Francisco or LA, and go ask them how it feels like to be one.

"Shi ke Sha, bu ke ru". This means you can kill us, but you can't humiliate the Chinese. Right now, Taiwan is humiliating the Chinese, they are a total disgrace. Taiwan is a fucked up land who can't get their head right. That is exactly what Chen Shui bitch is turning Taiwan into. This has to do with Chinese nationalism, because after all, they are trying to break apart Chinese, but Taiwanese feel they are still part of China(the majority, at least), they are the descendants of the Dragon. Dragon being Chinese. Let Taiwan remain part of China, and stop causing problems towards China, even though I may despise the Gong Chan Dang(family reasons) as much aas you may for other reasons.

When it comes to Chinese nationalism, I don't believe others can criticize this, because you are NOT Chinese, so this only has to do with us. Respect my race, I'll respect yours. For example, you may be Italian. What would you do if Sicily broke apart? You would also feel Italian nationalism. Same scenario here. Just because we're Chinese and not European doesn't mean we don't have the right to believe in a unified land, not necessarily a country. Chinese government is also a disgrace to China, but my love with China is miles deep, that I cannot accept a motherfucker to break China apart. It's like tearing my own flesh apart. I would feel the same if some asshole took the Florida keys or hawaii apart. Howver, that will not happen, but Taiwan breaking apart is a possibility. If that does happen, it will only result in war. Innocent lives will be the cost, but ultimately, China will still win. Long live the Chinese.

[W.E.B. Dubois]

True. Remember, The island of Taiwan was never formally given back to China, it was given to Japan in a peace treaty in 1895, so really, the PRC has no claim over it at all.

You do not know what you are talking about. China surrendered many of its lands to imperialists during those decades of foreign conquest and exploitation. Some lands were returned some were not. It so happens that all lands taken by the Japanese during their conqest was returned as part of their surrender and some post-war treaties (the Potsdam and San Francisco Treaty (that's not the exact name but close).


Panderlate, I agree with you that CSB is an idiot and an immoral person because (A) he should feel some pride in being Chinese and not try to split China, (B) he could still try to maintain the status quo, (C) he seems to be intentionally angering China in order to influence political outcomes, (D) he is making fundamental changes to Taiwan even though he got only half the vote. He acts as though he has a popular mandate.

Military, China is much weaker than you think and a war with Taiwan would certainly hurt China much more than you think. China cannot take Taiwan right now and in a conventional battle PLA would be handily defeated by the US. However, China has nukes... Suffice it to say that even without US intervention China cannot take Taiwan for at least another ~20 years. By that time the US may be quite reluctant to intervene with a more modernized power.

You should check out two different sites: the Chinese Military Forum and the Chinese Defense Forum. You will find many people there like yourself, although the first forum is quite nationalistic and there is not so much diverstiy or moderation of opinon as there is here.

[Timkunming]

PP, why are you so Anti-Taiwan? Yes, their name is the "Republic of China" but really, how long did Taiwan have absolutely no relations with the People's Republic? I think around 30 years. Taiwanese were not allowed to come to us, and we weren't allowed to go there. To this day, I still have not been to Taiwan. Although someday I would like to see it.
Chen Shui Bian, is a Hakka, the native people of Taiwan. This is one huge reason why Hakka culture and songs are always on channel like Dong Feng Weishi. This isn't all a Chinese issue. There were people on Taiwan before the Han came.
In any case, I think you have something mixed up. The Chinese economy supports the Taiwan economy? You do know in the late eighties and early nineties, a huge percentage of foreign investment into China came from Hong Kong and Taiwan. In effect, during this time the Chinese economy was supported by Taiwan investors and Hong Kong investors. I think China should be kissing them. There wouldn't even be a Chinese economy to speak of without their help. That is true.
On the mainland, no one really cares. The CCTV always have some news about how we want to bring Taiwan back, but they say this for years. Actually, I think this is just another thing to bring Chinese people on the mainland together in order to take attention away from other real problems in China.
Also, why do you think no one else understands? We don't want to look like racist! How big is Taiwan? I don't care if it blow up, it means nothing to me because no one I know lives there. Singapore also has majority Chinese, should be take it too? No, that is stupid.
I know some Taiwanese who do businessin the mainland and they do not want to become part of China because of the Communist Party. For this siotuation, you can look at Hong Kong. It's not good.
I agree that China should be one nation. It will be good for us. But these Chinese went to Taiwan on their own. They decided to form Taiwan. They didn't want to be part of us. Also i hear that many Taiwanese make fun of mainland people like we are poor and stupid. There will be difference between us now, so we should let them do what they want, and become friends.

[gravedigger]

I agree that China should be one nation. It will be good for us. But these Chinese went to Taiwan on their own. They decided to form Taiwan. They didn't want to be part of us. Also i hear that many Taiwanese make fun of mainland people like we are poor and stupid. There will be difference between us now, so we should let them do what they want, and become friends.

hello,Timkunming
you are the first person i have met ,who have different voice on taiwan issue. that's good, I have got tied of always one voice in china. although in some point of views i don't agree with u, I still would like to talk about something with u, and exchange some opinions.

In certain extand, taiwan could seek independence., but in a long run, how could it be independent? let's imagaine, if the taiwan is independent, what will be happened? The usa certainly will armed taiwan, deploy some missiles aimed to china, is a big threaten to china.not at all, some of the other provinces or tibet would seek independence. the reason is adequate, if taiwan can, why others can't.

so, looking from the overall situation and most of the chineses interests, i don't support the independence of taiwan(who can use english express this more exact , I mean the bold part. 从整体（全局
）和大多数的人的利益来看 ).

but I don't support taiwan unite now, because the independence of taiwan can forced china goverment make some changes in somewhere. if the taiwan merge into china now, you know, the fucking government can do everthing they like and became more unscrupulous and vicious, the democaracy will never come to china.

as to taiwan, china could give they autonomy, one china, two policy.but should allow they real be autonomy,not like HK. we can noticed that in recently, some of the actions china have taken reflect the rouge government don't want to HK get feedom like before . so the one china,two policy is not a lip servie, it should be carry to like it put to.

[Thin Spirits]

Taiwan. Ok. I am surprised I have not found any topics about Taiwan.

I can't believe this was the first statement you made.
Clearly you research things very carefullybefore you make bold claims.

... and that was only on the first page.

[Proctor]

I am surprised I have not found any topics about Taiwan.

That's probably because you haven't looked very hard. http://www.politicsforum.org/forum/search.php?mode=results
*edit* Ah. I see Thin Spirits beat me to it.

Let's think this through, does ANY country want to fight on Taiwan's side?

The United States have said repeatedly that they would use all means necessary to defend Taiwan. That's a very bold thing to say about a country that you have no formal treaty with (their protection deal with Taiwan was ended when the US recognised Beijing as the rightful ruler of China). And that means nuclear weapons.
China knows this. China is not going to fuck with Taiwan, just as Taiwan is not going to fuck with China, because neither country wants to get nuked. However, Beijing has long said that if Taiwan formally declared independence, it would mean war. Chen is not stupid enough to do something that would mean the total annihilation of his country.

I did kind of exaggerate, because as you know, there was no public poll conducted among the Taiwanese to survery them if they believed in the assassination attempt.

I think you may be wrong on this. I'm pretty sure there was a poll conducted as to whether the shooting was faked. A slim majority believed it was.

I agree with you that CSB is an idiot and an immoral person because...he is making fundamental changes to Taiwan even though he got only half the vote. He acts as though he has a popular mandate.

Well... That's the way Presidential elections work. The winner will more often that not have less than half the vote. As long as they have more votes than any other candidate, they are the winner. Seeing as Chen won the election, he does have a popular mandate. And if he won half the vote, he did win a majority (a majority is 50% + 1). Which is unusual with Presidential elections, and shows that he has an unusually high level of support.