[Locke13]

"So it seems that the problem with communism is communism itself? Is that what democracy teaches other people to think?" Not sure how to understand that.

This is what you said

Then, since we're a democracy, we asked the Corsicans whether they wanted it or not. They said no, with a wide majority. There is no tricks here, nothing I hide or is hidden from me : we're a democracy, we solve our troubles in a democratic way, like we preach you to do.

The whole point of communism is that the people do not get to decide. That is what communism means. So you're saying the problem with communism is the idea of communism itself. Was that too complicated for you?

Regarding the Dalai Lama himself, he was still a kid at this time. I don't know what he did, whether it was good or bad, but I would say it's not relevant to judge him today. Finally, whatever the old theocracy did in Tibet, this does not excuse the fact you claim that Tibet is yours without worrying about what the people living there today may want. As I said, past doesn't matter, people's will does.

No Harmattan. The current Dalai Llama did not cut off fingers and gauge eyeballs out. The previous ones did. The whole idea of a Dalai Llama is ridiculous. They leave power in the hands of someone that does not know how to rule and do as he likes. Of course this doesn't really apply to the current Dalai llama as he has quite a few accomplishments but he isn't acknowledging the crimes of his ancestors

[Harmattan]

@Locke13
For the start, communism's political doctrine has nothing to see with the current power organization in China. Marx thinked a temporary proletariat's dictatorship would be necessary but not only it was supposed to be temporary, until the communism would be well set up, but it was not ever meant to the ruling of a small elite. I am not fond of communism but the Chinese regime is a perversion of the communism (now, maybe the communism is doomed to pervert itself, that's a possibility).

Now, you distorted my words. Put them back into their context : I was answering to someone who compared Corsica to Tibet while they have nothing to see and pretended we're just acting the same way than the Chinese regime. I just explained how it was different.


On the Dalai Lama, it is very possible he refused to acknowledge his ancestors' acts. Actually, I would not be surprised, it's just like the Pope who refuse to acknowledge Pie XVI's silence during the WW2, my own country's leaders who all refused to apologize for colonization (and we had to wait for Chirac to see a French president acknowledge the French govt's attitude under Nazism), the Japanese negationism and countless other examples around the world. Now, who cares ? I mean, why do our countries' leaders meet with him ? Two reasons :
a) He's a religious leader and some of our citizens share his faith.
b) He's the representative of a people who faced and faces (to a different extent) some form of oppression and calls to democracy as a solution (although he probably hopes to restore theocracy in the end). He's not the only one but he has medias' attention.

Both of those roles have been played in the History by men with blood on their hands and the Nobel price for peace has been awarded to people with far worst backgrounds. Now, you don't have to say to me he's not a saint : in my opinion, he is a religious leader who share the same stupid ideas than most other religious leaders, whether it is on abortion, contraception, etc. Let's not talk about his campaign against the railroad between Lhassa and Pekin.

[Lone Gunman]

So the Chinese government admits it's abusing human rights, but feels that the rights of China's current population are insignificant compared with the rights of a stone statue? NOTHING NEW THERE.

The guy owns them fair and square and his ransom for their safe return to China is a valid one. This entire story, however, is a real joke. It's hardly 'news'. Haha!

[ninurta]

Or he's saying, "you better free tibet and give the chinese people rights fast in order to get your relics. You better get them before I sell them."

[corleniet]

So the Chinese government admits it's abusing human rights, but feels that the rights of China's current population are insignificant compared with the rights of a stone statue? NOTHING NEW THERE.

cannot say that my pal.
China just say this logic is ridiculous.
haha, Human right is not people,people is not all of the people.
the problem of human right is more or less in China, not exist or not.

[dudekebm]

Well, how we feel about Chinese human rights record, politics, etc... aside, IIRC didn't the Egyptians push a ways back for return of all antiquities? And there's the old controversy regarding the Elgin Marbles and Greece?

Arguments against return of such that are logical usually consist of the fact that the antiquities are kept in better condition and are better preserved outside the region of origin. Prime example of this being the fragments of the Elgin Marbles being kept in a controlled environment in the British Museum versus being returned to Athens under suspect conditions (i.e. would such be exposed to the pollution in Athens which has taken a toll on a lot of the erosion of ruins/monuments within that city).

With the Chinese however and this sort of antiquity, would the antiquities be under better condition and care within the Saint Laurent/Berge collection or would it be better in a Chinese museum? I can picture the Chinese going all out on a museum with a very controlled environment to preserve such as such antiquities are a matter of national pride.

Another question however: Is the Saint Laurent/Berge collection a private collection or is it part of a museum available for public viewing? If the former, then it seems just like simple hubris trying to dictate policy to China as if they were an upstart colony and he was viceroy. This might affect the French detrimentally in future interests or the EU in general if having to deal with China as far as trade and other dealings. If the latter, then perhaps it might be better if the Chinese and French and their respective departments of antiquities work something out on a diplomatic level.

[Celebriton]

You know guys, if you stole valuable sculpture, painting or any arts in Europe.

You can can send it to Japan. They will keep those items for several years until it became legal to be owned. It's Japan law.

We can see many stolen European arts in Japan street. You can buy it if you want to decorate your vacation house or just for saving.

It's too bad, that there's several items returned to Europe for free, as the former owner museum demand it as stolen items and need to be returned.

Japanese owner actually can keep those items legally. But for the sake of good-will and his reputation, he return it.

I don't know which is right or wrong. I think stolen items need to be returned right?

Is there no international law for it?

[ninurta]

I find it ironic that Dalai Llama speaks against oppression, seeing that he saw nothing wrong with it when he was the theocratic king of Tibet. I am pro-tibetan rights, but honestly, I don't like hypocrites.

I am not amused nor fooled. It sounds alot like Osama Bin Laden condemning the killing of innocence in Gaza. The funny thing is, though I don't like Hamas, I actually support a free Gaza/palestine. But not to get off track.

Dalai Llama shouldn't be speaking about human rights, he should be saying to all the peasants, "I am sorry I lived off you."

In fact, communist China was welcomed by the Tibetans and helped them greatly. It was when the Communist government started to oppress people in tibet that the tibetans rebel. I think Dalai Llama should thank tibetans for their forgiving him (if they all have) and go back into hiding.

As for the statue, the british museums never had to give back the babylonian riches looted from the Iraqis.

[Celebriton]

As for the statue, the british museums never had to give back the babylonian riches looted from the Iraqis.

It just for a time, before Iraqis ask for their ancient relics...after their reach stability and build their country.

Like Egypt ask for their relics to be returned.

[ninurta]

It just for a time, before Iraqis ask for their ancient relics...after their reach stability and build their country.

Like Egypt ask for their relics to be returned.

Yet its still ultimately up to the holder to give it up. I know you may not agree with that, I don't agree with tomb looting either, but thats how it is.