[Fidel Nico]

The end justifys the means.

Is this not from Machiavelli?

Anyway politics is amoral.

[Nox]

The end justifys the means.

Is this not from Machiavelli?

Over the years many have said this or very close similarities. As far as who said it first ... probably a Neanderthal named Gok said it first. Gok's problem was ... he didn't copywright it.

My limited research shows that Ignatius Loyola (founder of the Jesuit movement) has the earliest recorded pen and ink version of same.

Nox

[Enigmatic]

[broken into segments as my connection refuses to let me post more than a couple of paragraphs at a time]
Most classical female nudes look overweight to the modern eye, as plumpness is no longer valued as a sign of good health - no doubt our ancestors would be horrified at today's anorexic models. To Mannerist artists, an artificially elongated female neck was the height of elegance - to the modern eye it merely looks strange. And one can hardly imagine a modern monarch marrying Anne of Cleves on the basis of Hans Holbein's depiction of her.
Classical males are usually unnaturally heavily muscled, as if the artist has spent to long studying the human muscular structure; this is balanced by their often surprisingly feminine facial characteristics. The Body Mass Index would regard them as overweight, and not just because those in statue form are made from marble.

The "styles" or adornments adopted by humans, especially females, throughout the ages have been fundamental to the perception of their beauty, and yet cultural traditions seen as the hallmark of beauty to some seem strange if not disfiguring to us.

[Enigmatic]

Yes, humans have an innate appreciation of symmetry and tone which can be attributed to the way our brains are wired, and our reading of faces and sexual desires are influenced by instinct. Scientists have spent a lot of time studying the measurements of facial features of females widely perceived as sexually attractive, coming to the rather disturbing conclusion that many of the "ideal" ratios resembled those of young children (who, nevertheless, most people would not consider at all sexually attractive). These ideal faces are not replicated in the shape of the faces of idealised "demure" but plain woman of medieval art, and don't cross racial boundaries. The only quality which is universally agreed upon is that of symmetry - and yet some people manage to be beautiful and assymmetrical.

Besides, many of the people on UglyPeople.com are married

[Enigmatic]

And surely you're not going to argue that human appreciation of non-human beauty is also primarily biologically determined? An intricately painted, carefully proportioned piece of Renaissance art may be an "interesting but flawed example by a lesser artist", or beautiful to the layman. Picasso's Guernica, a grotesque parody of traditional depictions of battle scenes, is an acclaimed masterpiece, at least to people educated in modern art. Traditional Asian music sounds weird to a Westerner who is used to music using a different scale. Enter Sandman is widely perceived by metalheads as a brilliant song by talented musicians, and yet is used at Camp X-ray on people from other cultures as a form of psychological torture. A ramshackle jerry-built cottage whose owners wished they could afford to pull down to build a nice square-fronted brick house is seen as beautiful centuries later. Carefully designed and proportioned International style buildings by acclaimed architects are seen as ugly decades later. Squid, frogs legs, sheep's eyes, bull's testicles, many types of insect and chicken feet are regarded as delicacies in different countries. Some people like the taste of peanuts. Some people could die from eating them.

[Comrade Ogilvy]

And surely you're not going to argue that human appreciation of non-human beauty is also primarily biologically determined? An intricately painted, carefully proportioned piece of Renaissance art may be an "interesting but flawed example by a lesser artist", or beautiful to the layman. Picasso's Guernica, a grotesque parody of traditional depictions of battle scenes, is an acclaimed masterpiece, at least to people educated in modern art. Traditional Asian music sounds weird to a Westerner who is used to music using a different scale. Enter Sandman is widely perceived by metalheads as a brilliant song by talented musicians, and yet is used at Camp X-ray on people from other cultures as a form of psychological torture. A ramshackle jerry-built cottage whose owners wished they could afford to pull down to build a nice square-fronted brick house is seen as beautiful centuries later. Carefully designed and proportioned International style buildings by acclaimed architects are seen as ugly decades later. Squid, frogs legs, sheep's eyes, bull's testicles, many types of insect and chicken feet are regarded as delicacies in different countries. Some people like the taste of peanuts. Some people could die from eating them.

This is all besides the point. Most cultures will appreciate a pretty sunset, or the view of a mountain embraced valley and stream. Simply put, a pretty face is a pretty face, is a pretty face, no matter what time, age, culture, whatever. What man considers as natural beauty has not changed, period. I have not heard the 'young children' ratio before when learning about the science of attraction. To my knowledge, the main factor in determining attraction and beauty was facial symmetry.

[Al Khabir]

Beuty is a personal thing- the artists of the most noble Ottoman empire saw beauty in the two dimensional paintings rendered as though from a minaret tower. They believed that when after many years they became blind they could draw from memory the perfect form, in the way it was seen by Allah. Those from Europe saw this as backward and painted from the perspective of the common dog on the street, which was in turn looked down on by the Illuminators.

Here already are there two interpretations of true beauty from the same time.

[Enigmatic]

Most cultures will appreciate a pretty sunset, or the view of a mountain embraced valley and stream

A few hundred years ago the rugged areas of Northern England now considered areas of outstanding natural beauty were considered horrible inhospitable terrain by the travellers passing through. And a stream was simply a water supply.

Simply put, a pretty face is a pretty face, is a pretty face, no matter what time, age, culture, whatever. What man considers as natural beauty has not changed, period.

Ever seen a Miss World competition and wondered how some of the contestants could possibly have been considered beautiful by many in their own country, in spite of their flawless complexions and trim figures?

I have not heard the 'young children' ratio before when learning about the science of attraction. To my knowledge, the main factor in determining attraction and beauty was facial symmetry

A female face that has not shown this bone growth and therefore retains many childlike features is indicating youth and/or a good estrogen/ testosterone balance, also signifying perhaps she has not yet borne many/any children. Males preferring such faces and mating with women with such faces would have left more offspring than males that preferred masculinated, older female faces. In this way, the preference for very young looking female faces would have spread through the population, resulting in it becoming a universal male preference (even in cultures that do not have a media saturated with images of young female faces!). Turner (1999) states that a study of female models showed that they had facial proportions typical of a 7-year-old girls, and that another study showed the most attractive faces created by males on the computer had facial proportions more typical of 11 year olds.
Symmetry is important in attraction. However, the concept of beauty goes beyond that of instinctual sexual attraction, which itself seems to be significantly affected by individual whims and by the "nurture" factor.

[Yeddi]

I watched a show on attraction, i don't remember a great deal but it did say that famles in certain stages of the cycle prefer different faces, when they are at their most fertile, it is an aggressive face... it was interesting